What Should the Default Skeptical Position on Telepathy Be?

Right, and science has explained what you are describing. Coincidence, confirmation bias, and plasticity of memory can completely explain what you are describing. There is no need for the telepathy hypothesis because there is nothing more to explain.

I know it's not a memory problem because within seconds of it happening, it's remarked upon by both people and remembered accurately by both people as a surprising event. People aren't misremembering the mental synchronicity we seem to sometimes experience. That's far-fetched.

Concidence is a possible explanation and so is confirmation bias. But they would have to explain it every single time. There couldn't be a single case where those two explanations don't work. I'm not convinced that's the case, and so far you've just asserted it.
 
If a low-grade ability like I described exists, I can see it getting lost in the noise, or an anamolous result getting dismissed because it's so hard to replicate.

Is this similar to how there are tens of thousands of spirit photographs, probably, and because there are loads of fakes and double exposures and a lot of paradeoilia (sp?) that a few genuine ones are bound to fall through the cracks?

I mean, why is the default position that there is no ghost in my wife's high school photograph? Isn't that like saying you just don't believe anyone when they tell you they have been to China?
 
Yeah, and there are so many reasons why you might both have the same thought at the same time.

The fact you have already been before makes it much less surprising as you may have been on a day very similar to the one on which you both had the same idea.

Perhaps the jingle for the ice cream shop was just on TV or on the radio and you both heard it, but maybe only subconsciously.

Or maybe you both saw a banana, or even heard the word "split".

Or maybe, because you had both eaten at the same time you felt like dessert and you both remembered the dessert you had eaten not long ago etc...

Either way, shared experiences are more than likely to result in similar thoughts.

Absolutely. As weird as it is when those things happen, it's never something outside of a previous shared experience. It's never something deeply personal to me he would have no way of knowing of because I haven't shared that information. It's something like thinking of going back to an ice cream place, and we're in the same room sharing the same environmental cues which will guide our thoughts into a "boom" of coincidence. (Is there a word for "coincidence" that doesn't mean "random chance"? Like, 2 events coinciding which have shared causes?)
 
That's a possible explanation. You'll have to argue further to establish it should be the default explanation.

It's not the default explanation. The default explanation is the null, which would be that coincidental knowledge between pairs of people occurs by chance alone. Once you start examining the data, the effects of familiarity do a much better job of falsifying the null than telepathy. This is because it contains fewer untestable elements. You don't get to hide behind what you say are inherently untestable elements of your hypothesis and then complain that other explanations are more plausible because they're more testable. Typically a fringe claim is held to be untestable in order to assert that it's unrefutable. That doesn't make it the stronger hypothesis.

I can see it getting lost in the noise...

If you want to reduce the noise, then the only way to do that is to provide the more rigorous laboratory conditions you eschew. You can't hide behind the effects of noise while at the same time advocating the casual approach that amplifies it.

...or an anamolous result getting dismissed because it's so hard to replicate.

"Hard to replicate" means it doesn't occur at a significant rate when controls are applied. That suggests that not all the people who claim it's happening to them under the lack of control are accurately interpreting the experience.

And there are people who have claimed to have gotten some results on the margins (again, the PEAR group), but you have to wade through tons of stats to evaluate their claims.

I've waded through the stats. PEAR didn't find anything.
 
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Kellyb has said we should have found something by now. Possibly. It's disconfirming a little that we haven't. But outside of a few groups like PEAR, which shut down awhile ago, this stuff doesn't really get studied much.

Have you ever looked into the cold war studies which have been declassified? The US and Soviets were looking at this stuff as an alternative to radio and satellite coms using horrifying animal experiments. They really, really tried to find it. If it existed, I'm pretty sure they would have. Anything real can be weaponized or used for defense.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/news-blog/us-and-soviet-spooks-studied-parano-2008-10-29/

The soviets looked into it as "biocommunications" :)

https://archive.org/stream/CIA-RDP96-00787R000500420001-2/CIA-RDP96-00787R000500420001-2_djvu.txt

They all really left no stone unturned. I honestly wish they'd found something. I still consider it slightly possible that there's something like telepathy happening, but it's just not terribly likely. Heh.
 
Right, the question is whether it's an extraordinary claim or not.

I scientific claim for something for which there is no scientific evidence is, by definition, and extraordinary claim

I have heard accounts from credible people so many times (including experiencing it myself) that I would be surprised if occasional telepathy didn't happen. And the claim that infrequent sporadic low-grade telepathy occurs among people who have lived together a long time is not that extraordinary a claim. There's nothing that contradicts it.

There is also nothing to confirm that what is being observed is telepathy. What is far more likely is that some subtle stimulus or body language is being read.

My dog loves to go for rides in the car, and she gets very excited at the prospect. When I pick up my car keys (even if I am in a completely different room from her) she races to the back door, whines and whimpers and wags her tail furiously. Does that mean she read my mind, or that somehow, I telepathically communicated my intent to drive the car? Of course not. Its learned behaviour. She has learned to associate a stimulus (the sound of the car keys jangling) with a ride in the car. Its testable too, either pick up the keys and go to the car to get something. If its telepathy, the dog should not respond.

Reading actions or body language is a bit more complex, but it happens. If I start getting my saddle and riding gear ready, she gets excited about that too because she knows that I am about to go riding in the forest and I always take her with me.

Occam's Razor... the simplest answer is most likely the correct one.
 
The default skeptical position on everything should be "Nothing exists unless it can be demonstrated to exist".

Unless telepathy (/bigfoot/ufos/illuminati/chemtrails/etc.) can be demonstrated to exist, it doesn't exist.
 
My dog loves to go for rides in the car, and she gets very excited at the prospect. When I pick up my car keys (even if I am in a completely different room from her) she races to the back door, whines and whimpers and wags her tail furiously. Does that mean she read my mind, or that somehow, I telepathically communicated my intent to drive the car? Of course not. Its learned behaviour. She has learned to associate a stimulus (the sound of the car keys jangling) with a ride in the car. Its testable too, either pick up the keys and go to the car to get something. If its telepathy, the dog should not respond.


My cat used to turn up, apparently from nowhere when I got home from work and he was about to be fed. He would come through the cat door, or out of a cupboard, or simply wake up.


It could not have been possibly hearing the car pull up, hearing the front door open, hear me get a can of pet food and open it, or any other rational idea. It just had to be that this cat was telepathic.



No other answer is possible.


Norm
 
Anecdote time:

'You're lying on my half of the bed. Get to the other side.'
'Say the magic word.'
'Please?'
'Nope'
'Pretty please?'
'Nope'
'Go away?'
'No. Still not the correct magic word'
'Ickey, icky, icky, patang, zoop boing?'
'............ Uhmmm. Actually it was Shrubbery, It's close enough.'

Fudbucker?
Telepathy or not?
 
There is an important distinction between people lying and people being mistaken in claims like these.
 
So take the claim "telepathy exists". I imagine most skeptics here would consider that an extraordinary claim that would require extraordinary verifyable evidence that wasn't explainable by conventional means, and the basis of that would be the complete lack of any success of anyone actually demonstrating anything like telepathy in controlled circumstances. Fair enough. That would disconfirm the claim that telepathy that can be performed in controlled settings most likely doesn't exist.

FTFY

But what about the idea that telepathy might happen occasionally and very rarely at that (call it "intermittent telepathy)"? If two people live together for a long time, you'll often hear stories about how they've "read" each other's minds, that the experience goes beyond just coincidence. Even some skeptics here have talked about some uncanny experiences (I forget the particular posters). I've been married for 20 years. I've had maybe a couple dozen experiences like that.

I've been with my wife for a little over twenty five years now, in that timescale of daily interactions there are literally billions of opportunities to retroactively assign significance to events, and that is before the (almost incalculable) effect that knowing the other person intimately has on the chances of these events. "Beyond coincidence" is an incredible (in a literal sense) claim.
 
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Would this 'don't disbelieve it because it really feels like there might be a few actual data points in all the noise' stuff also apply to things like Bigfoot, dowsing, aliens, ancient aliens, and so on?
 
No, I know what the default skeptical position is. What it should be is a different thing......

Here's where you start going wrong. There is no need to make exceptions for your favourite bit of woo. Sceptical thinking and the scientific method don't get altered just to make them say what you want them to say.
 
Are we aware of any other brain functions that only work intermittently every ten days or so, and cannot be tested for, or is it just telepathy?

I can influence dice rolls but not to a degree that a sufficiently large sample size would fail standard tests for randomness.
 
I can influence dice rolls but not to a degree that a sufficiently large sample size would fail standard tests for randomness.

I find that burning unruly dice in full view of the rest works much better than trying to influence them with my mind.

As any DnD player can attest.
 
How much would persons capable of somewhat-reliable telepathy be worth to a company, a government, law enforcement?
How much effort did Russia and the CIA into identifying people with such skills?

If despite a large incentive and significant efforts to find something it remains completely elusive, any sudden discovery should be met with very high skepticism indeed.
 
If two people live together for a long time, you'll often hear stories about how they've "read" each other's minds, that the experience goes beyond just coincidence. Even some skeptics here have talked about some uncanny experiences (I forget the particular posters). I've been married for 20 years. I've had maybe a couple dozen experiences like that.

So effing what? I've been married for over thirty years, in the course of which my wife and I have amassed a wealth of information, both consciously and subconsciously, about how each other will react to a broad variety of different situations, informed and backed up by conversations after the fact where we've communicated to each other what our thoughts and reactions were. Based on such a solid footing of empirical data, it would be extraordinary if, at times, we didn't each have a very good idea what the other is thinking, because we both know what the other was thinking last time something like that happened. And, of course, we remember the times we got it right, and forget - sometimes conveniently, because nobody wants to be cast in the role of the insensitive spouse who doesn't really understand his partner - the times we got it wrong.

So the skeptical position when investigating incidents like this is, do we have any compelling reason to invoke telepathy, a hypothetical phenomenon with no known mechanism which categorically violates the entire framework of physical laws by which we, as a species, have achieved an extraordinary level of control of the world around us; or do we accept that it can be explained by a main course of mutual knowledge and understanding with a side order of coincidence and a topping of confirmation bias?

If someone claims to have gone to China, is the null position, "No you didn't"? You don't go around doubting everything everyone says.

Context, of course, is crucial. If someone who works for a Chinese company and makes frequent business trips abroad says "I was in China last week," most reasonable people would accept for the moment that she probably was. If a homeless drug addict stops you on the street and says, "Give me a fiver, mate, I spent all my money on a holiday in China last week and I just got back," a more dispherical reply is appropriate. So, if something that I know happens all the time is claimed to have happened, I'll probably accept it where there aren't any consequences involved. And, of course, if someone nicked my bike last week and I see said drug addict riding one that looks exactly like it, but he says "It can't have been me because I was in China last week," I'm not going to let that stop me mentioning it to the local rozzers, because in this case there's good reason for me to exercise the mechanisms of skepticism.

So, since it actually matters whether or not telepathy is real - because it would be so damned useful if it did - then let's exercise skepticism; define your hypothesis and state the evidence for it, and if you can't define a hypothesis or provide convincing evidence then it's probably not real.

Dave
 
The default should be to utterly deny any psychic powers because:



If anything like telepathic mind reading, or any other psychic powers, were possible...


- there would at least be some concrete evidence for it.
- evolution would have run with it.
- someone would be making money.


That is apart from the lack of any possible mechanism or force of nature to mediate it, or any organ to receive it (or send it).
 

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