What should Morals and Ethics be?

[Cheetah]

I'm with Sidney Parker on this one:

What a cop-out!

I can't see that morality is anything else than doing what you want to do.
That doesn't necessarily mean being selfish or bad. For a lot of people what they want to do is to help alleviate the suffering of others.
But I can't see that there is anything more to it.

Another cop-out.

I agree. Morality isn't a physical phenomenon that can be discovered and proven. We simply decide what kind of lives we want to live and what kind of society we want to have, and act accordingly to make it happen.

The hat trick!



I know morality is all about doing what you want to do and what you want to do is all about feelings and instincts etc. but there are limits people! We can't all do what we want to do and expect society to function. No society has ever functioned like that.


With that attitude how could you say racism is bad, it's only people doing what they want to do. You could even justify it by saying the feeling is totally natural and part of our tribal instincts. Ditto with sexism.

Seems like a totally selfish attitude to me.

 

[TragicMonkey]

What a cop-out!
Another cop-out. The hat trick!



I know morality is all about doing what you want to do and what you want to do is all about feelings and instincts etc. but there are limits people! We can't all do what we want to do and expect society to function. No society has ever functioned like that.

Every society has always functioned like that. People choose how to behave. They may be choosing as they do because they think their gods demand it, or their ancestors do, or because they think it's right, or perhaps they don't think about it at all. But absent physical compulsion everything someone does is a choice.

With that attitude how could you say racism is bad, it's only people doing what they want to do. You could even justify it by saying the feeling is totally natural and part of our tribal instincts. Ditto with sexism.

Seems like a totally selfish attitude to me.

The question of what is good is separate from the question of how we choose to act.

As for selfishness, we exist as individuals therefore everything we do is ultimately selfish to some degree. There's no way out of that.

 

[caveman1917]

I can't see that morality is anything else than doing what you want to do.

That doesn't necessarily mean being selfish or bad. For a lot of people what they want to do is to help alleviate the suffering of others.

But I can't see that there is anything more to it.

It seems rather that morality is nothing else than getting others to do what you want them to do. You yourself doing what you want to do needs no moral justification.

 

[caveman1917]

What a cop-out!

In a discussion about which deity is the best and how we should get everyone to worship that particular one all the time, I would, as an atheist, similarly cop-out for basically the same reason.

 

[caveman1917]

With that attitude how could you say racism is bad, it's only people doing what they want to do. You could even justify it by saying the feeling is totally natural and part of our tribal instincts. Ditto with sexism.

Might is right. If it's not in your interest that racism exists then you should organize to end it, ie to apply your might. Standing around claiming superior obedience to some fixed idea of "morality" you've constructed doesn't help anyone, including black people or women or the working class.

Seems like a totally selfish attitude to me.

Thank you.

 

[Cheetah]

Every society has always functioned like that. People choose how to behave.
...
But absent physical compulsion everything someone does is a choice.

That's just circular. Of course people behave however they choose to, but that misses the point that society has a HUGE influence on how people choose to behave.
Morals have evolved enormously. A fairly modern idea is that all people should have some universal rights that society should uphold.
How do you feel about that idea?

As for selfishness, we exist as individuals therefore everything we do is ultimately selfish to some degree. There's no way out of that.

We are very much social creatures as well. We cooperate quite well when we want to.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

People behave morally when not doing so will cause more problems than it's worth.

 

[Cheetah]

Might is right. If it's not in your interest that racism exists then you should organize to end it, ie to apply your might. Standing around claiming superior obedience to some fixed idea of "morality" you've constructed doesn't help anyone, including black people or women or the working class.

Thank you.

Ahhhh. I see.


How has your "Might is right" philosophy worked out for you in the real world?

 

[TragicMonkey]

That's just circular. Of course people behave however they choose to, but that misses the point that society has a HUGE influence on how people choose to behave.

An influenced choice is still a choice. You have free will whether you like it or not, whether you know it or not.

Morals have evolved enormously. A fairly modern idea is that all people should have some universal rights that society should uphold.
How do you feel about that idea?

I like that idea, so I behave in a fashion to implement it. See? I choose how I'd like my life and society to be, and act accordingly. If my society chose to implement slavery I would disagree with that, and choose to act against society. Collective or individual it's all desire and choice.

We are very much social creatures as well. We cooperate quite well when we want to.

I never said otherwise. Working as a group to achieve a common goal is of benefit to the individuals in that group, therefore it cannot be said to be unselfish.

 

[Belz...]

What should the rules be and what should they be based on?

Common feelings about values. They can't be based on anything else.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Common feelings about values. They can't be based on anything else.

That can't be entirely so, or else ethics would be a majority vote. If 5 million Cardassians agree it's ethical to enslave 1 million Bajorans that cannot make it ethical.

There must be principles in there, although agreeing on them won't be simple.

 

[mumblethrax]

I can't see that morality is anything else than doing what you want to do.

That seems hopelessly reductive to me. Yesterday I was on a bus with terrible wifi service, and I noticed that the mobile gateway was using the manufacturer's default password, so I could have blacklisted everyone but me and had decent service. And I wanted to do this. If I had acted on that desire, I think it would be absurd to say that I acted morally.

We too often have conflicting desires (first- and second-order; yours and mine) for this to be true, and that's where morality lives.

 

[TragicMonkey]

That seems hopelessly reductive to me. Yesterday I was on a bus with terrible wifi service, and I noticed that the mobile gateway was using the manufacturer's default password, so I could have blacklisted everyone but me and had decent service. And I wanted to do this. If I had acted on that desire, I think it would be absurd to say that I acted morally.

We too often have conflicting desires (first- and second-order; yours and mine) for this to be true, and that's where morality lives.

But you did act as you wanted to: your desire to not do that thing overrode your weaker desire to do it. You made a choice and acted on it.

 

[Cheetah]

There must be principles in there, although agreeing on them won't be simple.

Yes!
That's what I think.
Getting anyone to suggest such a principle though is like pulling teeth, ones with really long intertwined roots.

Dammit people, we are practically all genetically identical in comparison to most species, we should be able to agree on some things.

 

[Cheetah]

Common feelings about values. They can't be based on anything else.

What values would you include?

 

[caveman1917]

Ahhhh. I see.


How has your "Might is right" philosophy worked out for you in the real world?

Very good, thank you. But it's not so much a philosophy as an observation. How have your morality plays worked out for you?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Morality and ethics are questions of reducing the suffering of conscious beings. The questions are answered like every other question; by weighing the evidence.

These questions are difficult, fiendishly complicated at times, and complicated further by cultural baggage, but they are not magical woo-woo questions that either don't have answers or only have absolute answers handed to us by the burning bush.

Everything else is so much Angels dancing on the head of a pin and can be dismissed as the nonsense it is.

 

[mumblethrax]

But you did act as you wanted to: your desire to not do that thing overrode your weaker desire to do it. You made a choice and acted on it.

You're missing the point--if I had chosen to do the selfish thing, it would be absurd to call the choice moral. The reason I didn't do it is precisely because I thought it would be unethical. Which means that it can't be true that morality/ethics just means just doing what we want. It's a very specific subset of desires, even if we accept the egoistic framing (and there are lots of good reasons why we shouldn't). Which means there's more work involved in calling them desires--what kind of desire, exactly? Saying "it's just us doing what we want to do" elides the whole topic.

 

[Cheetah]

Very good, thank you. But it's not so much a philosophy as an observation. How have your morality plays worked out for you?

Oh, an observation, sorry.
I was asking about personal opinions, so naturally I thought that was yours.
What is your philosophy then?

 

[Belz...]

That can't be entirely so, or else ethics would be a majority vote. If 5 million Cardassians agree it's ethical to enslave 1 million Bajorans that cannot make it ethical.

Sure it can. For the Cardassians.

Values are not objective.