What Says the Jury? Is GZ Innocent or Guilty?

[Sabretooth]

Based on the facts we have this point (which I realize is incomplete), if you had to make a decision, how would you find?

There's a lot of speculation here; some wild, some potentially valid.

What we do know:

- GZ calls 911 to report a "suspicious person" walking the streets of his neighborhood.
- GZ starts to lose sight of TM, so he attempts to follow him.
- The 911 operator recommends against following TM and GZ confirms he heard the advice.
- GZ and TM get into a scuffle of some kind. This is confirmed by a separate 911 call.
- GZ discharges his firearm, killing TM.
- GZ has claimed this was done in self-defense.

GZ has been charged with 2nd degree murder. There are some details not listed here that are outlined in the Florida Affidavit.

I understand this is a heated topic and there is another thread discussing the vast array of opinions and interpretations...but let's try to play fair here and keep any discussion to strictly the known facts.

Poll to follow momentarily.

 

[Sabretooth]

BTW - I voted Guilty for the sole reason the GZ pursued and initiated contact with TM. Had GZ listened to the 911 dispatcher, the altercation would have been avoided.


ETA: I am willing to change my vote if any new evidence suggests otherwise.

 

[defaultdotxbe]

i voted mistrial, not so much because i think thats what will happen, but because i think its what should happen, with all the media attention and the fact that this has become such a divisive topic i dont see how an impartial jury can be selected, so neither side can get a fair trial

 

[sgtbaker]

I voted planet x because I am would like to see the evidence first.

 

[triforcharity]

Hung jury, because we didn't get any evidence.

(Personally, I think he's guilty, but willing to be swayed)

 

[PhantomWolf]

BTW - I voted Guilty for the sole reason the GZ pursued and initiated contact with TM. Had GZ listened to the 911 dispatcher, the altercation would have been avoided.


ETA: I am willing to change my vote if any new evidence suggests otherwise.

I find this interesting because there is zero evidence as to who initiated the contact. From what we do know GZ initally lost sight of TM and was returning to his truck. Something then happened that brought them together, we don't know what it was, whether GZ saw TM and went after him again, or whether TM saw GZ leaving and confronted him about following him. Either is possible.

 

[leftysergeant]

According to Norman Goldman, an attorney who also host a talk show on the radio, there is a manslaughter charge included in the charges.

Murder 2 is difficult. Manslaughter should be a slam dunk, since Z initiated the action for no valid reason.

 

[Mike!]

According to Norman Goldman, an attorney who also host a talk show on the radio, there is a manslaughter charge included in the charges.

Murder 2 is difficult. Manslaughter should be a slam dunk, since Z initiated the action for no valid reason.

I fear I have to agree with you.

 

[Unabogie]

Waiting for the trial evidence. I think he's guilty, but I don't know if he'll be convicted or even if I personally would vote guilty until I see what his defense is.

 

[BStrong]

My swag (scientific wild-ass guess)

As I accurately predicted the 2nd degree murder indictment, I'm willing to wager that GZ will end up being convicted of manslaughter.

I've had many discussions with the guys about this, and the consensus is that you have a 28 year old kid with a carry permit, no formal training, and a desire to protect his community.

If he was smart enough to limit his "crime fighting" to calling 911, he wouldn't have his ass in a crack.

 

[crimresearch]

BTW - I voted Guilty for the sole reason the GZ pursued and initiated contact with TM. Had GZ listened to the 911 dispatcher, the altercation would have been avoided.


ETA: I am willing to change my vote if any new evidence suggests otherwise.

I would hope that if you ever were on a real jury, that you wouldn't simply ignore the jury instructions as you have so far.

 

[MG1962]

BTW - I voted Guilty for the sole reason the GZ pursued and initiated contact with TM. Had GZ listened to the 911 dispatcher, the altercation would have been avoided.


ETA: I am willing to change my vote if any new evidence suggests otherwise.

Exactly my thoughts

 

[Travis]

I'm going with Planet X for the moment.

I sure think he's guilty but I'm not sure even I would vote guilty just based on that suspicion of mine. And what a hypothetical jury (if he wants a jury) might do is up in the air.

 

[dirtywick]

I can't see 2nd degree murder out of that. For this purpose, let's say that GZ did follow and intitate the conflict and things went bad. Where is the intent to kill?

 

[leftysergeant]

I can't see 2nd degree murder out of that. For this purpose, let's say that GZ did follow and intitate the conflict and things went bad. Where is the intent to kill?

That depends on whether he was able to regain control of his weapon and/or break free from Martin before he fired. If he had gotten Martin down, then drew and fired, self-defense is hard to support. If he and martin had both gotten to their feet and he didn't run (he had the obligation to back off because he was clearly the aggressor) it is arguable that he shot Martin because he wis angry at having gotten his ass kicked. He has known anger control issues.

 

[PhantomWolf]

BTW - I voted Guilty for the sole reason the GZ pursued and initiated contact with TM. Had GZ listened to the 911 dispatcher, the altercation would have been avoided.


ETA: I am willing to change my vote if any new evidence suggests otherwise.

You are of course aware that GZ had already left the truck and was following TM, who after coming over and looking at GZ, then ran, heading for the back entrance (because that's where he thought he was going) before the 911 dispatcher asked if he was following? You are also aware that the dispatcher didn't say "don't follow him" but rather told him "We don't need you to do that." This was 11 seconds after he'd left the truck.

 

[PhantomWolf]

That depends on whether he was able to regain control of his weapon and/or break free from Martin before he fired. If he had gotten Martin down, then drew and fired, self-defense is hard to support. If he and martin had both gotten to their feet and he didn't run (he had the obligation to back off because he was clearly the aggressor) it is arguable that he shot Martin because he wis angry at having gotten his ass kicked. He has known anger control issues.

That's an awful lot of speculation, especially the bolded bit. It's not clear at all who was the aggressor.

 

[leftysergeant]

That's an awful lot of speculation, especially the bolded bit. It's not clear at all who was the aggressor.

When you chase down an innocent man and scare the bejeebus out of him, you're pretty clearly the aggressor, don't you think?

 

[MG1962]

You are of course aware that GZ had already left the truck and was following TM, who after coming over and looking at GZ, then ran, heading for the back entrance (because that's where he thought he was going) before the 911 dispatcher asked if he was following? You are also aware that the dispatcher didn't say "don't follow him" but rather told him "We don't need you to do that." This was 11 seconds after he'd left the truck.

How was this established with such precision?

 

[Brattus]

Something then happened that brought them together, we don't know what it was, whether GZ saw TM and went after him again, or whether TM saw GZ leaving and confronted him about following him. Either is possible.

When did GZ go after him the first time? He called 911 because he saw some kid prowling around the back of some apartments and he is the leader of the local neighborhood watch. If he were out to hunt and kill a black kid why would he call 911 beforehand? It's not GZ fault that the majority of local criminals in his neighborhood are young black men.

There are many a child years younger than TM who will break into someones home while they are there and use their own kitchen utensils to end them all slowly and painfully.
That is why neighborhood watch groups are a good idea.

According to Norman Goldman, an attorney who also host a talk show on the radio, there is a manslaughter charge included in the charges.

Murder 2 is difficult. Manslaughter should be a slam dunk, since Z initiated the action for no valid reason.

Wow! He's a radio talk show host and everything! Whoopdee do! He doesn't know any more than any of the rest of us.
Manslaughter is not a slam dunk by any means here. If it wasn't for the media spreading racial hatred with their lies and doctored recordings GZ wouldn't even be in jail now.

As far as TMs parents are concerned TM was simply going to the store to buy himself some candy. He was walking down the street GZ pulls up and shoots him dead. Police give GZ a medal and take a few trophy pictures then GZ goes home and sleeps like baby.

Of course they are going to view it that way. I can't even imagine their loss and grief. It is only natural that they would view it that way. What is so screwed up is that the media sold that view as fact and people just blindly eating every crumb and begging for more.

TM was not just walking down the street. If he was just walking down the street GZ would not have even noticed him. TM was prowling around where he had no business. GZ as the leader of his neighborhood watch is concerned about his neighbors.
GZ did not pull his gun and run up to TM and demand why he was prowling around while shooting him.

GZ called 911 while trying to keep an eye on TM. As stated before TM was just not skipping down the street eating skittles. TM was dodging behind and around the buildings. So much so GZ lost sight of him.

After that there is an eyewitness stating that TM was in full on brutal ass kicking mode on GZ when GZ shot and killed TM.

GZ had no way of knowing if TM had a knife or some other weapon he had yet to use on him.
TM was no longer the 10 or 12 year old kid in the family pictures the media are still showing as current photos of TM. Yet another manipulation of fact by all the news channels.

A 17 year old young man can do a lot of damage with his fist to a full adult man.