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What passes as proof

Cheers IanS, for pointing me in that direction.
Celsus makes more amenable reading than Philo.

I've never understood those who claim Jesus' story doesn't fit in a semi-divine hero pattern.
Celsus anad yes, Justin Martyr, makes it clear that, at least in the second century, pagans considered Jesus in this light.

I suppose those early mosaics showing Jesus as a Bacchus or Apollo* type don't count as evidence for that view, or do they?



*both are sons of human mothers and divine fathers
 
Cheers IanS, for pointing me in that direction.
Celsus makes more amenable reading than Philo.

I've never understood those who claim Jesus' story doesn't fit in a semi-divine hero pattern.
Celsus anad yes, Justin Martyr, makes it clear that, at least in the second century, pagans considered Jesus in this light.

I suppose those early mosaics showing Jesus as a Bacchus or Apollo* type don't count as evidence for that view, or do they?



*both are sons of human mothers and divine fathers

The author of Luke and Acts adapted an episode from Euripides' The Bacchae for two miracles in Acts. Both involved apostles being supernaturally freed from prison, with the fetters magically falling from their feet, and the prison doors opening of themselves. It's also likely that the episode in Mark 6 where Jesus is rejected in his hometown is based on the motif of Dionysus being rejected in his hometown of Thebes, again from The Bacchae.
 
pakeha

*both are sons of human mothers and divine fathers
That is directly contrary to the view of about 1/3 of those living people who profess a religious commitment to a historical Jesus born of a virgin. For once, logic favors Islam. It simply does not follow from the lack of a human father that God is a person's father. The only canonical Gospel that says that Mary and Joseph did not have sexual intercourse before Jesus' birth, Matthew, does not then go on to say who the father was.

Mattie's phrase is "through the Holy Spirit." If "Holy Spirit" is read in the Jewish sense (it is Jewish characters whose thinking is being depicted), as God's will in time and space, then what Mattie writes is fully consistent with Mohammed. Allah wills a thing and it is so.

Even Mattie's misreading of Isaiah says nothing about divine paternity. As indeed it cannot: it is a Jewish text and the Jewish God has no children. Once again, logic favors Islam.And that text is Mattie's acknowledged source for the virgin birth idea. Celsus has no incentive to avoid rhetorical excess and bloviate about phony pagan sources, plainly contrary to the black letter text he discusses, nor does his Christian commentator have an incetnive to repair the fault.

On the Nicene side (more or less the other 2/3), the relationship is "begottten, not made." While it is fine to say a distinction like that was responding to criticisms like Celsus', the basis is found in the only Gospel that portrays Jesus as divine in his own right, John. Jesus created the matter out of which his mother was made. This is a Greek-style philosophical borrowing and Jewish fusion (Philo would have loved it), but it is not a Greek mythological borrowing.
 
The author of Luke and Acts adapted an episode from Euripides' The Bacchae for two miracles in Acts. Both involved apostles being supernaturally freed from prison, with the fetters magically falling from their feet, and the prison doors opening of themselves. It's also likely that the episode in Mark 6 where Jesus is rejected in his hometown is based on the motif of Dionysus being rejected in his hometown of Thebes, again from The Bacchae.

Thanks for reminding us of that, Tim.
And The Bacchae was written for the court of Alexander the Great's father*, IIRC.

You've given me an excellent excuse for rereading that play this afternoon.



pakeha


That is directly contrary to the view of about 1/3 of those living people who profess a religious commitment to a historical Jesus born of a virgin. For once, logic favors Islam. It simply does not follow from the lack of a human father that God is a person's father. The only canonical Gospel that says that Mary and Joseph did not have sexual intercourse before Jesus' birth, Matthew, does not then go on to say who the father was.

Mattie's phrase is "through the Holy Spirit." If "Holy Spirit" is read in the Jewish sense (it is Jewish characters whose thinking is being depicted), as God's will in time and space, then what Mattie writes is fully consistent with Mohammed. Allah wills a thing and it is so.

Even Mattie's misreading of Isaiah says nothing about divine paternity. As indeed it cannot: it is a Jewish text and the Jewish God has no children. Once again, logic favors Islam.And that text is Mattie's acknowledged source for the virgin birth idea. Celsus has no incentive to avoid rhetorical excess and bloviate about phony pagan sources, plainly contrary to the black letter text he discusses, nor does his Christian commentator have an incetnive to repair the fault.

On the Nicene side (more or less the other 2/3), the relationship is "begottten, not made." While it is fine to say a distinction like that was responding to criticisms like Celsus', the basis is found in the only Gospel that portrays Jesus as divine in his own right, John. Jesus created the matter out of which his mother was made. This is a Greek-style philosophical borrowing and Jewish fusion (Philo would have loved it), but it is not a Greek mythological borrowing.
I liked your take on the always delicate subject of Jesus' parentage. Thanks for taking the time to set out that difference between a philosophical borrowing and a mythological borrowing.
D'you reckon a literary borrowing made it's way into the stock-pot as well?
If not in Matthew, in Luke and Acts; those similarities Tim mentioned are quite striking, on the face of it.




*Alexander, yet another with divine paternity AND, if those coins of the horned Alexander are anything to judge by, yet another example of the Hellene/Judaic fusion simmering in the region.
ETA
If this site is accurate
http://www.museumsurplus.com/AlexanderCoinsPAGE1.htm
I'm way off think those horns from the Jewish traditions, but rather from Amon, Alexander's divine father.
Neither the first nor last time I'm wrong, to be sure.
 
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pakeha

D'you reckon a literary borrowing made it's way into the stock-pot as well?
The pot's been simmering for two millennia, so far. Everything's been tossed in there, IMO, at one time or another. This particular issue, virgin birth, is especially precious: we can see it being added, and the chef on duty tells us plainly why he's adding it. That's invaluable for understanding the development of this stew.

If not in Matthew, in Luke and Acts; those similarities Tim mentioned are quite striking, on the face of it.
Really? OK, let's take a look.

Both involved apostles being supernaturally freed from prison, with the fetters magically falling from their feet, and the prison doors opening of themselves.
You write a jail break scene. Is your literary problem so different from Luke's or Euripides'? A fine writer like Tom Wolfe will have fun with it (In his novel, A Man in Full, Jupiter assists a prison break by collapsing part of the prison building - to hell with manacles, eh?... but it is the same picture, just retold by a professional storyteller who's aware that he's retelling, and so "biggesr, faster, higher..." are the only dgrees of freedom there are.)

Before: prisoner inside, with guards at hand. After: prisoner outside, guards ineffective in pursuit. Constraint: God needs to be seen helping the prisoner.

Suggestions?

It's also likely that the episode in Mark 6 where Jesus is rejected in his hometown is based on the motif of Dionysus being rejected in his hometown of Thebes, ...
Oh, give me a break. Is the saying "No man is a hero to his valet" ripped off from Euripides, too? "Familiarity breeds contempt?" Any constant irony of human experience will recur in literature. In human history, too.

You will also recall that Mark has a little twist on the trope: Jesus is rejected in his home town, so he goes to the big city, where he is crucified. Marcan Jesus is rejected everywhere. Dude can't even get figs from a fig tree. Mary probably had to tie a chicken wing around little Jesus' neck so that the family dog would play with him.
 
I see your point about the prison break, but even so, its an interesting point of similarity between those two divine figures.
Now that I think about it, Dionysus also has a magical boat ride and a serious relation with wine as well.


...Marcan Jesus is rejected everywhere. Dude can't even get figs from a fig tree. Mary probably had to tie a chicken wing around little Jesus' neck so that the family dog would play with him.

;)
That would explain his temper tantrum with the school master?
Which in itself is reminiscent of that incident of Hercules with Linus, his music master.
Time to stir the soup pot and add a laurel leaf.
 
. . (snip) . . .

You write a jail break scene. Is your literary problem so different from Luke's or Euripides'? A fine writer like Tom Wolfe will have fun with it (In his novel, A Man in Full, Jupiter assists a prison break by collapsing part of the prison building - to hell with manacles, eh?... but it is the same picture, just retold by a professional storyteller who's aware that he's retelling, and so "biggesr, faster, higher..." are the only dgrees of freedom there are.)

Before: prisoner inside, with guards at hand. After: prisoner outside, guards ineffective in pursuit. Constraint: God needs to be seen helping the prisoner.

. . . (minor snip) . . .

Here's the description of the miraculous freeing of the prisoners in The Bacchae, Related to Pentheus by one of his soldiers bolding added):

And there's something else—
those Bacchic women you locked up, the ones
you took in chains into the public prison—
they've all escaped. They're gone—playing around
in some meadow, calling out to Bromius,
summoning their god. Chains fell off their feet,
just dropping on their own. Keys opened doors
not turned by human hands.


Now, here's the story of Peter's supernatural release from prison in Acts (Acts 12:6 - 10, bolding added):

The very night when Herod was about to bring him out, Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound with two chains, and sentries before the door were guarding the prison; and behold, an angel of the Lord appeared, and a light shone in the cell; and he struck Peter on the side and woke him, saying, "Get up quickly," and the chains fell off his hands. And the angel said to him, "Dress yourself and put on your sandals." And he did so. And he said to him, "Wrap your mantle around you and follow me." And he went out and followed him; he did not know that what was done by the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision. When they passed the first and second guard, they came to an iron gate leading to the city It opened to them of its own accord, and they went out and passed through one street and immediately the angel left him.

And here's the description of the supernatural release of Paul and Silas from prison (Acts 16:26, 27, bolding added):

. . . and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken; and immediately all the doors opened and everyones fetters were unfastened.

So, you're saying the similarity between the miraculous releases from prison in The Bacchae and Acts are just coincidence?

Oh, give me a break. Is the saying "No man is a hero to his valet" ripped off from Euripides, too? "Familiarity breeds contempt?" Any constant irony of human experience will recur in literature. In human history, too.

You will also recall that Mark has a little twist on the trope: Jesus is rejected in his home town, so he goes to the big city, where he is crucified. Marcan Jesus is rejected everywhere. Dude can't even get figs from a fig tree. Mary probably had to tie a chicken wing around little Jesus' neck so that the family dog would play with him.

Of course Mark doesn't say that. In Mark Jesus says specifically (Mk. 6:4),
"A prophet is not without honor except in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house." The following verses say (Mk. 6:5, 6a):

And he could do no mighty work there except that he laid his hands upon a few sick people and healed them. And he marveled at their unbelief.

As Randel Helms points out in Gospel Fictions, in the Synoptic Gospels faith causes miracles. Time after time, Jesus tells some one he has healed that their faith has made them free. For example, in Mk. 5:25 - 34, a bit before his rejection in his home town, a woman with "an issue of blood" is healed by touching the hem of Jesus' garment. He tells her in v. 34, "Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace and be healed of your disease."

The fact that, in the Gospel of Mark, everywhere he goes crowds throng around him and people beg him to heal them directly contradicts your assertion: "Marcan Jesus is rejected everywhere. "

BTW, the many comparisons of Jesus to Dionysus weren't made to liken him to that Greek god so much as to say he was better than Dionysus. For example, in The Bacchae, the women possessed by Dionysus go mad. In Acts, when the disciples are possessed by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, they gain enlightenment and are able to speak languages they never knew. Remember also Justin Martyr's famous assertion in chapter 21 of his First Apology that Christians propose nothing new and his citing of various gods and heroes from Greek myth as parallels to Jesus.
 
Tim

So, you're saying the similarity between the miraculous releases from prison in The Bacchae and Acts are just coincidence?
No, not coincidence, just that there are only so many ways to break out of involuntary confinement. As I mentioned, I really liked Tom Wolfe's Jupiter's approach. Here's another classic, utterly secular... and it gives away a little secret about how chains "fall away"

http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/224997/I-Am-a-Fugitive-from-a-Chain-Gang-Movie-Clip-Escape.html

It's a motif, Tim. Nobody stole it from Euripides, and I suspect he didn't invent it, either.

I did note with pleasure some progress on another front

As Randel Helms points out in Gospel Fictions, in the Synoptic Gospels faith causes miracles.
How many have I told you that? Not some "superpower" of Jesus, but the recipient's believing in, and sharing in Jesus' understanding of what time in salvation history it was.

"Marcan Jesus is rejected everywhere. "
I anticipated that you'd recognize a straight set-up of a famous comedic line of Rodney Dangerfield (made kosher for use with Jesus, of course), hyperbolic as the original was hyperbolic. I see that I overestimated my reader. Thank God I didn't use the Woody Allen joke.

BTW, the many comparisons of Jesus to Dionysus weren't made to liken him to that Greek god so much as to say he was better than Dionysus.
That certainly is a possibility. The Pentecostal scene in Acts is interesting, but it doesn't involve Jesus. Luke does play a kind of Dionysus card there for laughs, but as to any actual relationship to the Bacchae, whether as an allusion to or an improvement upon, well, like jail breaks, enthusiasms have a certain sameness.
 
Tim


No, not coincidence, just that there are only so many ways to break out of involuntary confinement. As I mentioned, I really liked Tom Wolfe's Jupiter's approach. Here's another classic, utterly secular... and it gives away a little secret about how chains "fall away"

http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/224997/I-Am-a-Fugitive-from-a-Chain-Gang-Movie-Clip-Escape.html

It's a motif, Tim. Nobody stole it from Euripides, and I suspect he didn't invent it, either.

. . . (snip) . . .

In this regard, you may want to read what Dennis MacDonald has to say about mimesis in his book The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark. The use of material from The Bacchae in the supernatural freeing of Peter on one occasion, and Paul and Silas on another, in Acts would have been understood by those reading it in Roman in the second century as a perfectly acceptable literary allusion comparing the power of Jesus to that of Dionysus. BTW, if you suspect that Euripides didn't invent it, do you have any evidence to back what you suspect?

In any case, I think we can agree that the material in Acts was part of a literary trope about miraculous divine intervention.
 
In this regard, you may want to read what Dennis MacDonald has to say about mimesis in his book The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark. The use of material from The Bacchae in the supernatural freeing of Peter on one occasion, and Paul and Silas on another, in Acts would have been understood by those reading it in Roman in the second century as a perfectly acceptable literary allusion comparing the power of Jesus to that of Dionysus. BTW, if you suspect that Euripides didn't invent it, do you have any evidence to back what you suspect?

In any case, I think we can agree that the material in Acts was part of a literary trope about miraculous divine intervention.

Just to clarify the hilited area, I seem to have started to write something one way, as, "in Roman times," then I decided to write, "in the second century," with out deleting all of the first version. By the time I noticed the error, it was too late to edit the post. Hence, it looks as though I'm saying that people in the second century were reading something written in "Roman," which, of course, wasn't a language. In any case, the Book of Acts, like the rest of the Christian scriptures, was written in Koine Greek.
 

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