Cheetah
Master Poster
Really? Which and how?
What makes a man...
- Thread starter PhantomWolf
- Start date
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- Tags
- gender issues masculinity
psionl0
Skeptical about skeptics
And Who makes a woman...
Porpoise of Life
Illuminator
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2014
- Messages
- 4,950
Why does a lady with her views have a name like a drag queen?
Objectively and statistically speaking, what distinguishes males and females? Take 100,000 adult males and 100,000 adult females randomly selected out of any specific population and compare them as groups.
I should note here that one of the biggest problems here is that "manliness" is often perceived as something positive and desirable, thus if one associates attributes that are perceived as negative to it, then people tend to object. So in reality it's not "manliness", in the sense of what objectively distinguishes males from females, they are really concerned about. Instead they are concerned about is what the ideal man should be like, and not what men are really like.
Crime is a great example. Most crimes, especially the most serious and violent ones, are committed by men yet you would struggle to find someone who would openly suggest that being a criminal is a "manly" trait.
I should note here that one of the biggest problems here is that "manliness" is often perceived as something positive and desirable, thus if one associates attributes that are perceived as negative to it, then people tend to object. So in reality it's not "manliness", in the sense of what objectively distinguishes males from females, they are really concerned about. Instead they are concerned about is what the ideal man should be like, and not what men are really like.
Crime is a great example. Most crimes, especially the most serious and violent ones, are committed by men yet you would struggle to find someone who would openly suggest that being a criminal is a "manly" trait.
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Let me begin with this:
Endurance of pain:
Competitiveness:
(It's more interesting to take a look at how they exhibit their competitiveness)
How to spot a psychopath (according to a psychopath) (Independent, Dec. 11, 2015)
Dominance:
Aggression:
Anti-femininity:
Achievement:
(I already mentioned this one, but let me add this)
Eschewal of the appearance of weakness:
Personal anecdote: As a motorcyclist, I have had a couple of confrontations with psychopathic drivers who turned out to be small, weak men. Put a psychopathic weakling behind the steering wheel of a car …
Adventure:
Risk:
Psychopaths Cheat and Take Risks Due to Impaired Social Understanding (Psychological Science, Nov. 3, 2010)
Violence:
Psychopathy: Signs and symptons: Violence (Wikipedia)
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
We are how we are. Anybody who feels a need to conform to some mythology of how other people think they should be is pitiful.
Lothian
should be banned
Real men have tins, jars and tubs in which they keep things they will never need but think that will be required one day.
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
Hey, that happened to me just this weekend. That skull-shaped glitter confetti I'd been saving? It's going into the snowglobe I'm making. Real men do Xmas crafts.
Meadmaker
Unregistered
- Joined
- Apr 27, 2004
- Messages
- 29,033
The phrase "straw man" gets thrown about on this forum a lot, but Miranda Devine has provided an example of an actual straw man fallacy. She complains about the APA's guidelines and their aspersions against characteristically masculine traits, but the fact is that the APA never said what she is attributing to them. Her column presents a straw man version of what the APA said.
Although, interestingly enough, it seems that some here are perfectly willing to defend that straw man, so perhaps Ms. Devine wasn't as far off as I thought. While the APA never said those things, it seems like some people might agree with them, anyway.
So, I'll take the side that is at least in the same neighborhood as Miranda Devine's. Basically, I'll say that several of those traits are positive character traits that ought to be encouraged, and that they are more characteristic of men than of women. It is a good thing that we have people who are competitive, and aggressive, and stoic, and who are risk takers. I don't like the phrase "more of a man", but I will say that I would say that they are associated with masculinity and, to Ms. Devine's point, if a young man demonstrates those traits, he will find himself with more mating opportunities than if he doesn't. In a guy, those traits are pretty sexy, when used appropriately.
I will also say, though, that they aren't specifically masculine. They can be pretty sexy in women as well.
It also occurred to me that, like Ms. Devine's column starts out with, we really need people who have those traits, so that we can defend ourselves against violent attackers......who are almost always exhibiting those traits. In other words, we need manly men around who can defend us, against manly men. Hmmm.....
Oh well, the above is not well thought out or articulated, but I thought I would get the ball rolling a bit. I'll stand up for an idea of manliness as a positive trait, worthy of encouragement, especially among males. It might take a few posts to form a more articulate expression of that idea.
Although, interestingly enough, it seems that some here are perfectly willing to defend that straw man, so perhaps Ms. Devine wasn't as far off as I thought. While the APA never said those things, it seems like some people might agree with them, anyway.
So, I'll take the side that is at least in the same neighborhood as Miranda Devine's. Basically, I'll say that several of those traits are positive character traits that ought to be encouraged, and that they are more characteristic of men than of women. It is a good thing that we have people who are competitive, and aggressive, and stoic, and who are risk takers. I don't like the phrase "more of a man", but I will say that I would say that they are associated with masculinity and, to Ms. Devine's point, if a young man demonstrates those traits, he will find himself with more mating opportunities than if he doesn't. In a guy, those traits are pretty sexy, when used appropriately.
I will also say, though, that they aren't specifically masculine. They can be pretty sexy in women as well.
It also occurred to me that, like Ms. Devine's column starts out with, we really need people who have those traits, so that we can defend ourselves against violent attackers......who are almost always exhibiting those traits. In other words, we need manly men around who can defend us, against manly men. Hmmm.....
Oh well, the above is not well thought out or articulated, but I thought I would get the ball rolling a bit. I'll stand up for an idea of manliness as a positive trait, worthy of encouragement, especially among males. It might take a few posts to form a more articulate expression of that idea.
casebro
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Jun 14, 2005
- Messages
- 19,788
Sounds like half the women I ever met too.
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
I think the positive traits we should encourage people to have are not sex-specific and should not be tied to sex. Little Timmy should grow up to be responsible and confident etc because those are good qualities for anybody, not just men. Qualities that are good in themselves, not good because they match some cultural notion of how a particular sex should be.
Bikewer
Penultimate Amazing
So I’m fairly familiar with anthropological and evolutionary concepts of “human nature”.
By which we mean the rather “hard-wired” traits, responses, and behaviors that are largely common to human beings.
Most of us would be familiar with these things.... Humans are social, cooperative, altruistic, etc.... At the very same time we are territorial, aggressive, acquisitive, and we tend to “fear the other’.
That last group are all survival traits that likely kept our primitive ancestors alive, but cause all manner of problems for contemporary society.
I don’t think in all the reading I’ve done in this area I’ve ever heard any discussion of how these traits are linked to sex and gender.
Seems pretty obvious that though females are capable of aggression and territoriality and such, these tend to be male traits. Men get into fights, defend territory, go to war, and institutionalize racism and discrimination.
It’s not that women don’t engage in these things, but to my experience it seems more following the men along...Conforming to social norms and such.
So how much of this “toxic masculinity” that has become a hot topic is essentially hard-wired? Can it be changed? We know that culture acts (slowly...) to influence human nature.... That’s the basis of Pinker’s “The Better Angels”.
By which we mean the rather “hard-wired” traits, responses, and behaviors that are largely common to human beings.
Most of us would be familiar with these things.... Humans are social, cooperative, altruistic, etc.... At the very same time we are territorial, aggressive, acquisitive, and we tend to “fear the other’.
That last group are all survival traits that likely kept our primitive ancestors alive, but cause all manner of problems for contemporary society.
I don’t think in all the reading I’ve done in this area I’ve ever heard any discussion of how these traits are linked to sex and gender.
Seems pretty obvious that though females are capable of aggression and territoriality and such, these tend to be male traits. Men get into fights, defend territory, go to war, and institutionalize racism and discrimination.
It’s not that women don’t engage in these things, but to my experience it seems more following the men along...Conforming to social norms and such.
So how much of this “toxic masculinity” that has become a hot topic is essentially hard-wired? Can it be changed? We know that culture acts (slowly...) to influence human nature.... That’s the basis of Pinker’s “The Better Angels”.
rockysmith76
Banned
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2019
- Messages
- 1,990
So what makes a man makes one a Psychopath? PC Nonsense.
angrysoba
Philosophile
I piti the ful! - Now, no one can say B.A Baracus wasn't a real man!
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
I think all humans are inherently prone to all human traits and behaviors, but cultures define and enforce which behaviors are allowed by whom. When I'm aggressive it's allowed because I'm male and males are cultural permitted to be forceful. When a woman is aggressive she's a bitch because forcefulness is culturally reserved to males. Culture creates the roles and tries to suppress any behavior that doesn't fit. When an individual doesn't accept the roles or can't be placed in one then they get everything from being frowned at to being lynched by mobs.
Max points for each is 1000, so: soy boy.
TragicMonkey
Poisoned Waffles
Max points for each is 1000, so: soy boy.
The good news is he can boost all stats by equipping an armor that does +900 to everything. The bad news is the only armor that does that is the Delicate Rosebud Mithril Lace Bustier. And you need Exalted rep with the Twinkling Femme faction to get that.
No, not at all. That's not what makes a man. That's what somebody who suffers from toxic masculinity thinks makes a man.
The inferiority complex of some incels probably stems from their delusion that these psychopathic traits are what makes a real man. They should rejoice and be happy that they don't live up to them!
Cheetah
Master Poster
dann said:
Your links do not agree with you. They mean psychopaths have no consciousness or empathy and therefore take normal human drives to extremes, because they are not constrained by considering the well being of others.