Giz said:
Jeezus Zep...
1) "All of Europe was re-arming... Spain" - I have heard of Spain. The bit of Gibralter we don't own, right? I also heard that (after their civil war) Franco was neutral during the big one... actually they'd been neutral in WW1 as well and therefore not affected by....
I'm not sure if you are kidding here or what...
Spanish Civil War ring any bells? Franco's Fascist forces backed by the air-power of the German Condor Legion? The International Brigade? Guernica? And Miranda de Ebro concentration camp?
Giz said:
2) The Versailles Treaty
Most men-in-the-street have this vision; that Versailles was this draconian treaty that caused enough resentment that it kicked off WW2. This is primarilly due to the following timeline:
1921 Versailles
1939 WW2
And the application of deterministic hindsight...
Please don't put words in my mouth. I've already said that there was a heap of stuff happening in the inter-war gap, much of which was noticed
at the time, by the people of the day, as being a precursor of worse things to come. Versaille was recognised as just a starting point.
Giz said:
Was Versailles that harsh?
i) So Germany lost a bit of territory - primarily in the name of self determination (alsace lorraine returned to France etc). They also lost a bit of East Prussia to create the Polish Corridor - perhaps you'd criticise this as giving Hitler a "causus belli" but: a) An independant Poland needed a link to the outside world rather than relying on Russia and Germany which had a habit of swallowing it during previous centuries. b) Your beloved WW2 settlement dissolved East Prussia in it's entirety and yet no WW3 resulted...
I've already cited the Marshall Plan of 1949 - you may want to do your own comparison with the Versaille Treaty, and see why one worked and the other didn't. I'm pleased to agree that the Marshall Plan was a US initiative.
Giz said:
ii) So Germany had to pay reparations... let us not forget that it had been the prime instigator and engine of the global war! And democratic chancellors had pretty much negotiated away the outstanding reparations by the time Hitler took power. North Eastern France (the French Industrial heartland) had been devastated by the War - having taken the heaviest casualties (as a % of population) should they not have been helped back on their feet? They weren't the aggressors!
Although the Chancellors had managed to nullify some of the effect, in the mean time, returned soldiers such as Hitler and other nationalists (the National Socialists were just one of many such groups) were already on the rise. The land ceded to France was a large chunk of what was traditionally German land, including German industrial areas. This, too, didn't go down well with the local populace, who didn't particularly
want to be "French" purely by an accident of their home address.
Giz said:
iii) Viewed next to the German behaviour in occupied territories or the German version of a satisfactory peace (Treaty of Brest-Litovsk!) the Allies appear high minded. Note that in the allied countries the politicans were being screamed at to "squeeze Germany till the pips squeaked" and were vilified for NOT doing so.
Correct! Quite unlike following WW2.
Giz said:
I'd say that Hitler played on the Versaillies Treaty which was viewed negatively by the German people, but also that the Germans didn't really have that valid a reason to dislike Versaillies - other than being sore losers.
Oh, he was foamingly rabid about it! It was the bane of his life in the 1920's and 30's.
The 1918 armistice was not actually considered by the German forces to be a "defeat" of the German forces. An armistice to them was simply a "cease fighting". Certainly there wasn't any major loss of ground to the Allies at any time (except a few dozen miles towards the end), nor even an invasion of Germany by the victors. So I can imagine how they felt that they got hard done by at Versaille. I imagine it would be like getting a draw in a chess game, but your opponent gets the prize and praise for beating you. Certainly the German soldiers returned home feeling undefeated.
Giz said:
Furthermore, a large part of the reason Germany has been peaceful since 1945 is in large part due to it's comprehansive defeat and occupation. In 1918 German armies were defeated in Flanders (the "hundred days" - 8 August to 11 Nov) but the Armistice was concluded whilst they were still on foriegn soil. Ludondorrf spread the "stab in the back" myth that was gleefully latched onto by Hitler. You see, during WW1 the German people had been fed a steady diet of propaganda... until the 59th minute of the 11th hour they thought they were winning, they had this unreal sensation of having made huge sacrifices, still been occupying enemy territory and being told it was all in vain! When the German Army was allowed to march home under arms with bayonets fixed as if they were victors it fostered a belief that they "should have won". If only the Allies had compelled the German Army's surrender and occupied Germany (not just the Rhineland) as they did in 1945!
Hmmm... I'm glad you agree with me about the mindset of the German forces in 1918. And as I said above: Read up on the Marshall Plan of 1947.
Germany in 1945 had been reduced to rubble (the mechanisms of war were more powerful by then) and was a country pretty much in ruin for a year or so. Most of the population were either living in extreme poverty, or were refugees. So it was not the occupation
per se that was the reason for peace, it was the reduction of the German infrastructure to a level that prevented the population from doing
anything very much at all.
Giz said:
Germany's rebuilding was scuppered by the great depression and the emotional appeal of putting blind faith in a "great leader" who would cure all their ills.
No, it was
enhanced by these events. While the Nazis were on the ascendant politically, playing the nationalist card for all it was worth, they were not seen as a particularly viable economic alternative. However the Great Depression put Hitler in the box seat - he had the "answers" to the problems that had been visited on Germany (eliminate the weak democrats, bankers, Jews, communists, degenerate artists, any opposition, etc, etc), he had a bright vision of the future (German ultra-nationalism), and he had the economic solutions: the rebuilding of German industry and the rearmament of its military (by favouring nationalist industrialists, repudiation of the Versaille treaty, etc).
Once Hitler was in power, Germany became a model of fast industrial revival after the Depression - much admired world wide! That he achieved this by implementing his previously stated NSDAP policies was seen as "an acceptable price to pay" for the greater good. Of course, not everything was revealed:
Dachau dates from this time...
Today, you get the same types of messages from stump preachers, but we have learned (or
should have learned) that all that glitters is not gold.
