What Is The Soul?

[Achán hiNidráne]

Oh, and this is totally off-topic, but I like your avatar. The Incredibles was a really good movie, and for some reason that scene always makes me laugh.

Sorry, but I think he's besmirching a good movie by associating Mr. Incredible with superstitious, knuckle-dragging savages who think this is the 12th century rather than the 21st.

 

[David Henson]

Then what goes to heaven?

The Bible teaches that 144,000 people will go to heaven in spirit form immediately upon death and the majority of the faithful will, upon resurrection, live forever on earth. The rest will suffer eternal destruction. Hell is an old English word translated from the Hebrew sheol and Greek hades which means the unseen resting place of the dead. The common grave. The earth was created for man, heaven was created for the spirit creatures. (Psalm 37:29; 115:16 / Jeremiah 27:5 / 1 Corinthians 15:50)

What does defining the soul as blood do? You say that many people would take issue with the Bible using the "popular" definition of soul, as this has never been shown to exist, but it doesn't say "soul" to mean the same thing as everyone else, so that objection doesn't work. But obviously the Bible states the existence of something that remains after death, and this is the thing that most people would view as a soul. You are simply switching one word for another.

No. I'm simply stating that in a very basic sense the soul is the blood or the life (and all that involves) of any breathing creature. God also has a soul but obviously no blood. It just happens that blood is very important to the life of living creatures. The blood and life are sacred to Jehovah, so he is very protective of it.

The Bible doesn't state the existence of something that remains after death other than the memory of a person's life in the mind of God though that person is in the grave where there is no consciousness, pain or joy etc. There is, from this, the possibility of resurrection to life everlasting in paradise earth without sin, sickness, aging or death.

 

[MarekM]

The Bible teaches....

Is there any reason to believe that any of that is true besides this?

 

[David Henson]

David's already stated that "spirit creatures" go to heaven. If you're reading, David, I think we'd all like to hear more about this.

Okay. Lets start off by you asking me any questions about it you may have rather than me providing you with a long and tedious post on the subject, if you don't mind, please?

 

[MarekM]

Okay. Lets start off by you asking me any questions about it you may have rather than me providing you with a long and tedious post on the subject, if you don't mind, please?

What's a spirit creature?

What are some characteristics of spirit creatures?

Do we have any evidence that there's such a thing as a spirit creature?

(Just for starters.)

 

[David Henson]

Is there any reason to believe that any of that is true besides this?

If by that you mean that I am intending to establish the Bible itself is true because of any of this, no. That isn't my intention. It has no immediate bearing on whether or not the Bible is true or anything else in the Bible is true by default. It simply allows one to more accurately evaluate the Bible and compare it to apostate Christianity.

 

[Sun Countess]

David Henson, as I read your posts here and in other threads, I've gotten the impression that you're trying to clarify for atheists what the bible "really" says about souls, sin, heaven, creation, and the age of the earth. That you feel atheists are only atheists because they've somehow been misled by incorrect interpretations of scripture that "those other Christians" have been preaching. And that if we only understood that souls don't go to heaven (except for 144,000 lucky spirits), and biblical days can be extended until an event is completed, that we'll realize that the bible = truth.

But atheists aren't atheists because they've been misled on what the bible is really saying. They're atheists because there's no evidence of your god (Jehovah, Yahweh) or any other god. Jehovah isn't singled out for disbelief by atheists any more than Zeus or Vishnu is. He really ain't all that special.

For many European and North USAian atheists, he is, of course, the only god that they've been led to believe *is* real. Not too many kids were taught to believe in Odin or Jupiter or Cthulu. But they were taught to believe in Jehovah. And many did, until they realized the evidence for Jehovah's existence which was equal to the evidence for Zeus's existence. Which is to say - zero. They were already atheists with regards to every other god, and simply added one more to the list of gods for which there was no evidence. They're not going to magically become theists because they now believe that the bible teaches that a soul represents blood.

I don't know if this is what you're trying to do. I'm just wondering why else you think atheists need to be properly educated on what the bible says. Speaking only for myself, I don't really care. It's a work of fiction, and no interpretation is going to suddenly turn it into truth.

eta: I see that the software has changed A*mer*ica to USA. That wasn't me. North A*mer*i*cans don't all live in the USA. Hmph.

 

[Achán hiNidráne]

I don't know what the "no true Christian" fallacy is...

Your cheap attempt at evasion is noted.

...so I will just say read 2 Timothy 4:3-4.

Here's a word that you religionists aren't used to hearing in this culture that bends over ass-backwards to accommodate belief, no matter how wrong and stupid it is:

No.

 

[David Henson]

So the whole fact that the church exists, has a huge income, is pretty much not taxed at all, and has laws which protect it today doesn't matter because the people that the Bible is about (most of whom probably didn't exist) had miserable lives?

Well, if we are talking about the Mosaic Law which, from the perspective of the Hebrew / Aramaic and Christian Greek scripture (often incorrectly referred to as the Old Testament and New Testament) agree that the Mosaic Law was an imperfect foreshadow of the more perfect law of Christ and was replaced by the latter the church is opperating on the ignorance of the masses, wouldn't you agree?

And are you suggesting that the entire nation of Israel under the Mosaic Law was only a few people who did exist? Though I don't see how that would change anything even if it were true.

Yep. This one:

[qimg]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/50/Castlevania_nes_03.png[/qimg]

Though it has since evolved into a combination RPG/platformer series:

[qimg]http://www.siliconera.com/ds/castlevaniados/050830s1.jpg[/qimg]

I've played (and beaten) all of them, and I own most of them, as well as several pieces of memorabilia that only die-hard fans would be interested in (the entire soundtrack, anyone...?). It's eaten my life. Though Fallout 3 is certainly giving it a run for its money right now.

Thats the one! I must have beaten that game at least a half dozen times.

 

[I Am The Scum]

David, could you start by defining what a "spirit" is (preferably in positive terms), and establish what connection it has to a person? For example, does it look like the person, does it have their personality, memories, etc.?

Afterward, please justify the belief that such a thing exists.

 

[MarekM]

If by that you mean that I am intending to establish the Bible itself is true because of any of this, no. That isn't my intention. It has no immediate bearing on whether or not the Bible is true or anything else in the Bible is true by default.

No. What I meant was, is there any evidence, besides that which is written in the Bible, that suggests the theory you outlined concerning heaven and the fate of nonbelievers is true?

It simply allows one to more accurately evaluate the Bible and compare it to apostate Christianity.

You realize that the majority of individuals on this board neither believe biblical stories nor adhere to any form of apostate christianity. I think most are not particularly concerned with how one group interprets the bible as opposed to another. We believe they're all wrong when it comes to the truth of the matter believed.

Basically, what difference does it make if I'm convinced that your interpretation of the bible is more accurate than someone else's?

 

[Trent Wray]

God also has a soul but obviously no blood.

Okay. I won't even mention "show me god" for this one. This one caught my attention.

What makes you think God has a soul? Can you be more specific? Are you getting this idea from scripture, or are you leading to some other concept ... like God was once a person or creature of some sort or had blood at one time?

 

[Trent Wray]

That you feel atheists are only atheists because they've somehow been misled by incorrect interpretations of scripture that "those other Christians" have been preaching. And that if we only understood that souls don't go to heaven (except for 144,000 lucky spirits), and biblical days can be extended until an event is completed, that we'll realize that the bible = truth.

But atheists aren't atheists because they've been misled on what the bible is really saying. They're atheists because there's no evidence of your god (Jehovah, Yahweh) or any other god.

This is what I was trying to get him to see from the beginning.

 

[Sun Countess]

God also has a soul but obviously no blood.

I thought that soul = blood? And how is it "obvious" that he has no blood?

More quick questions: Did Jesus get to bring his body up to heaven? If it didn't go to heaven, was his tomb really empty? If he is up there with his full body, how does he interact with the other spirits?

 

[Trent Wray]

David ... I'm being 100% serious. If I am off you will think I'm joking, but I'm not ... I've heard there are some people who believe this:

All this talk of blood/soul ..... Do you think God or Jesus was a vampire?

 

[I Ratant]

The JW version of the Bible teaches that 144,000 people will go to heaven in spirit form immediately upon death and the majority of the faithful will, upon resurrection, live forever on earth. The rest will suffer eternal destruction.

.

live forever

The Sun will have something to say as to how long "forever" is going to be.
"Instead, in about 5 billion years, it will enter a red giant phase, its outer layers expanding as the hydrogen fuel in the core is consumed and the core contracts and heats up. Helium fusion will begin when the core temperature reaches around 100 million kelvins and will produce carbon, entering the asymptotic giant branch phase.
Earth's fate is precarious. As a red giant, the Sun will have a maximum radius beyond the Earth's current orbit, 1 AU (1.5×1011 m), 250 times the present radius of the Sun."
.
Science.
Forever ain't so long, and the "faithful" will join the rest.
Crispy critters all.

 

[David Henson]

David Henson, as I read your posts here and in other threads, I've gotten the impression that you're trying to clarify for atheists what the bible "really" says about souls, sin, heaven, creation, and the age of the earth. That you feel atheists are only atheists because they've somehow been misled by incorrect interpretations of scripture that "those other Christians" have been preaching. And that if we only understood that souls don't go to heaven (except for 144,000 lucky spirits), and biblical days can be extended until an event is completed, that we'll realize that the bible = truth.

No. I understand that reaction, though. The first 25 years of my life I hated Christianity and Religious nuts. That really hasn't changed unless it has increased. As an atheist (more aptly irreligious, though if atheist means not believing in gods I was atheist) I wasn't informed about the Bible and thought I should be. Discovering that the Bible was exactly what it claimed to be in no way obligated me to worship or appreciate Jehovah God. As the Bible says, the demons know and yet shudder. As a then practicing homosexual I had to decide which direction I wanted to go and it wasn't easy. I could just as well have rejected God, though believing.

But atheists aren't atheists because they've been misled on what the bible is really saying. They're atheists because there's no evidence of your god (Jehovah, Yahweh) or any other god. Jehovah isn't singled out for disbelief by atheists any more than Zeus or Vishnu is. He really ain't all that special.

I was an atheist most of my life. Everyone in my life right now - friends and family - are all atheists except for my mother. Some believers believe because they want to, some because of tradition or culture, and some from intense personal study. The same applies to unbelievers. Thats a personal thing and I don't judge lack of knowledge until either believer or unbeliever states publicly or directly to me something which to my knowledge is wrong.

On this forum and others atheist tell me that they are not interested in the Bible and that's fine, but is their harping on it only an indication that they want me to shut up or that they are not interested in it? I happen to believe that atheists are either uninformed or are politically and or socially frustrated in a predominately theistic society. But I also happen to believe that believers or unbelievers should at least be given the opportunity to be aware of the possibility that they are mislead or uninformed. If you are not interested ignore me.

I don't know if this is what you're trying to do. I'm just wondering why else you think atheists need to be properly educated on what the bible says. Speaking only for myself, I don't really care. It's a work of fiction, and no interpretation is going to suddenly turn it into truth.

Right. And I understand that, but I have seen you criticize my beliefs as being inaccurate and that changes our relationship.

eta: I see that the software has changed A*mer*ica to USA. That wasn't me. North A*mer*i*cans don't all live in the USA. Hmph.

Why on earth would they do such a thing?

 

[David Henson]

.

The Sun will have something to say as to how long "forever" is going to be.
"Instead, in about 5 billion years, it will enter a red giant phase, its outer layers expanding as the hydrogen fuel in the core is consumed and the core contracts and heats up. Helium fusion will begin when the core temperature reaches around 100 million kelvins and will produce carbon, entering the asymptotic giant branch phase.
Earth's fate is precarious. As a red giant, the Sun will have a maximum radius beyond the Earth's current orbit, 1 AU (1.5×1011 m), 250 times the present radius of the Sun."
.
Science.
Forever ain't so long, and the "faithful" will join the rest.
Crispy critters all.

Uh-huh . . . and this scientific prediction is a fact because the evidence supports it, correct? The Bible says that the sun will, at some point, be no more as well, you know.

 

[David Henson]

I thought that soul = blood? And how is it "obvious" that he has no blood?

More quick questions: Did Jesus get to bring his body up to heaven? If it didn't go to heaven, was his tomb really empty? If he is up there with his full body, how does he interact with the other spirits?

Before I answer your questions - I just finished responding to your last post which informed me quite clearly that you weren't interested in the Bible. What has made that change?

 

[Paulhoff]

Uh-huh . . . and this scientific prediction is a fact because the evidence supports it, correct? The Bible says that the sun will, at some point, be no more as well, you know.

And that will not be forever, get the idea.

Paul