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What is the definition of “I”? -- “I” is the software which runs on neural-network-HW

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_agent
In artificial intelligence <…> thermostat is an intelligent agent
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[...]

I was discussing whether things were capable of abstraction, not whether they met a particularly wide definition of "intelligent agent".

Is it your contention that either Venus fly traps, amoebas, enzymes or atoms are capable of abstraction?
 
Barehl is using appeal to emotion which is a logical fallacy and does not meet the scientific criteria.

There was no emotion in my post. I believe the word you are looking for is "scarcasm". That would be accurate if my post was only intended to make fun of you. However, I was sincere in saying that your theory and actions give a good example of the pitfalls of theory creation. It's an uneasy balance of confidence versus arrogance, of self-reliance versus self-delusion, of breaking new ground versus wasting time, and of fighting for your ideas versus being a stage mother. I've been vague about my theory because it isn't finished. And when it is finished it may not be any better than yours. But when the day comes (assuming it does) that I claim that my theory is finished, if I can't explain it to someone then the failure is mine, not someone else's.
 
That is not “our version”.
Why not, it's your thread. Own it.

“Neurons” is just the concrete implementation of the computing machine needed for the intelligent agent. Computing machine can be based on neural networks or it can be based on some other architecture/implementation.
Fine, as it goes. We started this thread with software in the title and have dispensed with it. Neurons are gone too.

I'm having trouble — what's left?

You see, for all your verbosity, you have left little sense. Can you refresh your point?
 
I'm having trouble — what's left?

The basic idea behind Minsky's Society of the Mind, which I gather has been thinly disguised and repackaged as much of ncb's manifesto. In short: the mind is made of little minds, competing for to own 'im. Those minds are made of lesser minds, one which recalled this poem.

Damn shame all that has nothing to do with how the brain actually works though. Minsky always was a bit of a navelgazer.
 
I was discussing whether things were capable of abstraction, not whether they met a particularly wide definition of "intelligent agent".


In order to understand Neurocluster Brain Model you need to have very strong comprehension about the definition of “intelligent agent”. The scientific term “intelligent agent” is very important, because autonomous neuroclusters act as “intelligent agents”.
The definition of scientific term “intelligent agent” is very different from pseudoscientific claptrap about intelligence.
Pseudoscientists claim that: 1) object X has intelligence ONLY IF it has “consciousness”, and 2) object X has “consciousness” ONLY IF it has intelligence – it is really amazing that such huge number of people do not have enough neurons in their brains to be capable to detect circular/recursive definitions which are meaningless by definition.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_agent
In artificial intelligence, an intelligent agent (IA) is an autonomous entity which observes through sensors and acts upon an environment using actuators (i.e. it is an agent) and directs its activity towards achieving goals (i.e. it is rational). Intelligent agents may also learn or use knowledge to achieve their goals. They may be very simple or very complex: a reflex machine such as a thermostat is an intelligent agent, as is a human being, as is a community of human beings working together towards a goal.
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Is it your contention that either Venus fly traps, amoebas, enzymes or atoms are capable of abstraction?


While the topic of “which objects are capable of abstraction” might be interesting from the theoretical point of view, however this topic is irrelevant to helping to understand Neurocluster Brain Model, so it is not worth to dwell into that.

If you are still very eager to study the topic of “abstraction” then do your homework – go to the university library and study the textbooks about “object/pattern classification”,
as it was explained in previous posts
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In computer science there is a field called “pattern recognition” which deals with “object/pattern classification”. Abstraction is the ability to do object classification.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_recognition
An example of pattern recognition is classification, which attempts to assign each input value to one of a given set of classes (for example, determine whether a given email is "spam" or "non-spam")

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistical_classification
In machine learning and statistics, classification is the problem of identifying to which of a set of categories (sub-populations) a new observation belongs, on the basis of a training set of data containing observations (or instances) whose category membership is known. An example would be assigning a given email into "spam" or "non-spam" classes or assigning a diagnosis to a given patient as described by observed characteristics of the patient (gender, blood pressure, presence or absence of certain symptoms, etc.).
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstraction
"An abstraction" is the product of this process—a concept that acts as a super-categorical noun for all subordinate concepts, and connects any related concepts as a group, field, or category.
Conceptual abstractions may be formed by filtering the information content of a concept or an observable phenomenon, selecting only the aspects which are relevant for a particular purpose.

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You mean real science like astral projection, demon possession, seances, multiple personalities, and creating a Manchurian candidate, these things from your website.


The list which barehl wrote – this is the list of phenomena, this is not the list of science fields.
This is the list of phenomena which thousands of people experience everyday around the globe.

In order to be able to scientifically explain these phenomena you need to have training/qualification in the following science fields (in all these areas simultaneously at the same time): theory of artificial intelligence, theory of pattern recognition/classification, theory of intelligent agents, information theory, analog computing, neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, psychophysics, physics, electronics, and some others.

You need to have very strong comprehension about the scientific definition of “intelligent agent”, because autonomous neuroclusters act as “intelligent agents”.

You need to have the ability to immediately to detect circular/recursive definitions which are meaningless by definition, as for example pseudoscientific term “consciousness” and many others.

If you will satisfy these minimum requirements then you will be able to understand the underlying working mechanism of these phenomena (like astral projection, demon possession, seances, multiple personalities, etc).

The scientific Neurocluster Brain Model demystifies, reveals and explains all religious and occult phenomena using the latest achievements from theory of artificial intelligence, theory of pattern recognition/classification, theory of intelligent agents, information theory, analog computing, neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, psychophysics, physics, electronics, and some other scientific areas.
 
The list which barehl wrote – this is the list of phenomena, this is not the list of science fields.
This is the list of phenomena which thousands of people experience everyday around the globe.

In order to be able to scientifically explain these phenomena you need to have training/qualification in the following science fields (in all these areas simultaneously at the same time): theory of artificial intelligence, theory of pattern recognition/classification, theory of intelligent agents, information theory, analog computing, neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, psychophysics, physics, electronics, and some others.

You need to have very strong comprehension about the scientific definition of “intelligent agent”, because autonomous neuroclusters act as “intelligent agents”.

You need to have the ability to immediately to detect circular/recursive definitions which are meaningless by definition, as for example pseudoscientific term “consciousness” and many others.

If you will satisfy these minimum requirements then you will be able to understand the underlying working mechanism of these phenomena (like astral projection, demon possession, seances, multiple personalities, etc).

The scientific Neurocluster Brain Model demystifies, reveals and explains all religious and occult phenomena using the latest achievements from theory of artificial intelligence, theory of pattern recognition/classification, theory of intelligent agents, information theory, analog computing, neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, psychophysics, physics, electronics, and some other scientific areas.

So, (ref "The Theory of So"), when are you going to provide evidence that:

1. the claimed competencies are relevant or required; and

2. that you possess competencies in the claimed fields, rather than arguing from ignorance and disguising this characteristic by randomly inserting vaguely relevant snippets from Wiki to cover the holes?
 
you don't need all that 'stuff', you don't need all that science, all you need an explanation more complete than materialism
 
So, the less control you have, the more intuitive you are.


That is correct. Explanation is bellow.

Neurons in the brain are organized into groups/networks/clusters which are specialized in solving various tasks. In other words, the brain consists of multiple modules which independently solve the tasks and present only the final result to the main personality. The main personality is able to observe and control the detailed flow of calculations only in very small number of modules. However majority of modules do not let in the main personality into the process solving the task and these modules solve the task completely independently and only when the final result is ready then this result is presented to the main personality. The main personality was not involved into the process of solving the problem and main personality was even not aware that solving was taking place. The main personality simply received the final answer/solution to the problem and due to the ignorance of the brain physiology people naively believe that they have received “revelation” from “out of this world”. It is interesting to note that religious adepts naively believe that “revelations” which they have received themselves surely must come from divine sources (from God, angels, etc) and not from demons, and that “revelations” received by adepts of competing religions surely must come from demonic sources and not from divine sources. However the truth is that all these “revelations” come from autonomous neuroclusters inside their own brain. These “revelations” sometimes are called as “heart's voice”, “insight” or “intuition”.
In psychology and psychiatry autonomous neuroclusters have ill-defined name “subconscious”, and when autonomous neuroclusters provide ready-made solution for the main personality – psychologists and psychiatrists call such phenomenon as “intuition” while religious adepts call the same phenomenon as “divine enlightenment”.
Official psychiatry/psychology is unable to provide clear scientific definition of “intuition” and is unable to explain the underlying mechanism of “intuition”, however Neurocluster Brain Model provides clear and simple definition:
intuition is the flow of information from autonomous neuroclusters to the main personality.
It is important to note that when a man’s brain functions poorly then the intuition of such man functions poorly too. This is due to simple reason – intuition is the part of his poorly functioning brain.

Many esoteric schools offer various “intuition training programs” claiming that with “intuition training” you can achieve astral projection, telekinesis, dream control, past life recall, and many more exciting abilities.
There is a very popular myth that it is very good to have high intuition, according to that myth – the higher the intuition the better.
However the reality is following.
The level of intuition is directly proportional to the percentage of autonomous independent areas (neuroclusters) in the brain which do not let the main personality to control calculations which occur in these areas of the brain.
The bigger the number of such uncontrollable independent neuroclusters in the brain – the higher the intuition.
The level of intuition is a measure of how much the main personality does not have the control over neuroclusters inside the brain.
If main personality has 100% control over all neuroclusters in the brain then intuition is equal to 0%.
If main personality has 0% control over all neuroclusters in the brain then intuition is equal to 100%.
If main personality has 50% control over all neuroclusters in the brain then intuition is equal to 50%.
And so on.
By the way, there is one popular claim used massively in the media which says “women have more intuition than men” which is naively presented as an advantage. However, let’s raise a simple question: having no control over his own brain is an advantage or not?

The term “subconscious” has the same problems as the term “intuition” – official psychiatry/psychology is unable to provide clear scientific definition of “subconscious” and is unable to explain the underlying mechanism of “subconscious”, however Neurocluster Brain Model provides clear and simple definition:
subconscious is the array of autonomous neuroclusters which are insubordinate to the main personality.
Autonomous neuroclusters (a.k.a. subconscious) provide only final calculated result to the main personality, they do not allow main personality to observe and control calculations which are done in autonomous neuroclusters. Autonomous neuroclusters can process and store processed information without main personality being aware of that stored information. Main personality can gain some limited access to that stored information (in autonomous neuroclusters) during the dreams and during “spiritual travels”.
The term “subconscious mind” is roughly equivalent to independent autonomous neuroclusters which can carry on a vast number of activities outside of the main personality’s conscious awareness.

Another popular synonym for the term “subconscious” is “unconscious” (a.k.a. “unconscious mind”). The authors who coined the term “unconscious mind” revealed their total lack of knowledge about brain physiology because all neurons in the brain are busy with information processing and all these neurons are “conscious”, in other words “unconscious mind” is the mind which is always “conscious” even when the main personality is not aware of their activity. The term “unconscious mind” is erroneous and obvious oxymoron.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymoron
An oxymoron (plural oxymora or oxymorons) is a figure of speech that juxtaposes elements that appear to be contradictory. <...>
The most common form of oxymoron involves an adjective–noun combination of two words. <...> examples of oxymora of this kind include:
- Dark light
- Living dead
- Guest host (also: Permanent guest host)
- Little while
- Crazy wisdom
- Mournful optimist
- Violent relaxation
Less often seen are noun–verb combinations of two words, such as the line "The silence whistles" from Nathan Alterman's "Summer Night", or in a song title like Simon & Garfunkel's "The Sound of Silence".

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So, high intuition causes you to be possessed by demons. Interesting.


This was not explicitly stated in the description of Neurocluster Brain Model, however barehl’s guess is correct.

Experimental statistical data shows that there is very high correlation between “intuition amount/level” and the probability to be “possessed by demons”.
Neurocluster Brain Model predicts that the higher the “intuition level” the man has – the higher the probability of manifestation of various occult/religious phenomena for that man.

It is very easy to predict in advance the “mediumship” successfulness ratio for the men who have never done “spiritualistic séance” before.
All you need to do is ask that man a simple question: “Do you have high intuition level or not? Please evaluate your own intuition level using the rating scale ranging from 0 to 10”.
Experimental data has confirmed that the higher the self-assigned score of “intuition level” – the higher the probability to succeed in “invoking spirits” during “spiritualistic séance”.

We will remind that the claim “women are more intuitive than men” is very well known and popular among population.

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http://www.universityherald.com/art...e-reflective-men-granada-barcelona-pompeu.htm
Women More Intuitive than Men, Study
April 25, 2014
Women are more intuitive and less reflective than men, according to a new study.
Scientists from the University of Granada, the Barcelona Pompeu Fabra University and Middlesex University said that female intuition could be related to lower exposure to testosterone in the womb.

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However what is less known among population, is the fact that exorcists from different religious organizations report the same statistics: the number of “women possessed by demons” is approximately 10 times bigger than the number of “men possessed by demons”.

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http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/57688/gass?sequence=2
While historians differ about the precise ratio of male to female witches across Europe, scholars agree that approximately seventy-five to eighty per cent of executed witches were women.
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https://books.google.lt/books?id=e7...yIcKyUc_BgdgC&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false
The etiology of MPD has been explored from a clinical perspective. In general, the female to male ratio is on the order of 10:1; some believe, however, that more men could be identified.
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https://books.google.lt/books?id=JK...&q=ratio women men demonic possession&f=false
My guess is that, across the board, there would be something like a 75 to 25 ratio favoring female over male spirit possession.
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The level of intuition is a measure of how much the main personality does not have the control over neuroclusters inside the brain.


Sleepwalker, because the coma stage is no scientific investigation: with him until they came to the Lord concept representing a spirit, changes which are is not be able to learn to some errors in use Many boys in scientological terms. The planet can often of the etymology of such man was the brain loses his angels Concerning you. For man's knowledge of person can will save a. Then such as If it on The man is small teeny tiny piece of the patient into the first time, and he established new term used in your there is awake.

However If epileptic neuron impulse firings into paradise some soul; in the point of the blood hypocapnia is never dried: up sleepwalker often attributed originated in theology of Spiritualism in case we will appear in Dianetics and demon is but have no clothes etc.
 
Sleepwalker, because the coma stage is no scientific investigation: with him until they came to the Lord concept representing a spirit, changes which are is not be able to learn to some errors in use Many boys in scientological terms. The planet can often of the etymology of such man was the brain loses his angels Concerning you. For man's knowledge of person can will save a. Then such as If it on The man is small teeny tiny piece of the patient into the first time, and he established new term used in your there is awake.

However If epileptic neuron impulse firings into paradise some soul; in the point of the blood hypocapnia is never dried: up sleepwalker often attributed originated in theology of Spiritualism in case we will appear in Dianetics and demon is but have no clothes etc.

At last. Sense.
 
Sleepwalker, because the coma stage is no scientific investigation: with him until they came to the Lord concept representing a spirit, changes which are is not be able to learn to some errors in use Many boys in scientological terms. The planet can often of the etymology of such man was the brain loses his angels Concerning you. For man's knowledge of person can will save a. Then such as If it on The man is small teeny tiny piece of the patient into the first time, and he established new term used in your there is awake.

However If epileptic neuron impulse firings into paradise some soul; in the point of the blood hypocapnia is never dried: up sleepwalker often attributed originated in theology of Spiritualism in case we will appear in Dianetics and demon is but have no clothes etc.

You, sir.
 
All readers who have strong religious fanatic faith that they posses “consciousness” – please raise your hand and come closer. We will put your "consciousness" to the test.

Question for all readers who have strong religious fanatic faith that they posses “consciousness”, question #4:
Does the bot have consciousness or not?

I believe that I exhibit the behaviors labelled as 'conscious' does that count?
 
The Freudian Slip: id works!

The Superego is boiling over.


Sigmund Freud's theory of psychoanalysis is pseudoscience and does not match the scientific criteria.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_topics_characterized_as_pseudoscience
List of topics characterized as pseudoscience
<...>
Psychoanalysis – body of ideas developed by Austrian physician Sigmund Freud and his followers, which is devoted to the study of human psychological functioning and behavior. It has been controversial ever since its inception. Karl Popper characterized it as pseudoscience based on psychoanalysis failing the requirement for falsifiability. Frank Cioffi argued that "though Popper is correct to say that psychoanalysis is pseudoscientific and correct to say that it is unfalsifiable, he is mistaken to suggest that it is pseudoscientific because it is unfalsifiable. […] It is when [Freud] insists that he has confirmed (not just instantiated) [his empirical theses] that he is being pseudoscientific.

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It is very easy to show that Sigmund Freud's theory of psychoanalysis is pseudoscientific claptrap.
Pseudoscientists use intensively terms (invented by Sigmund Freud): 1) id, 2) ego, and 3) super-ego.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego
Id, ego, and super-ego are the three parts of the psychic apparatus defined in Sigmund Freud's structural model of the psyche; they are the three theoretical constructs in terms of whose activity and interaction our mental life is described. According to this model of the psyche, the id is the set of uncoordinated instinctual trends; the super-ego plays the critical and moralizing role; and the ego is the organized, realistic part that mediates between the desires of the id and the super-ego. The super-ego can stop one from doing certain things that one's id may want to do.
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Let’s raise simple questions:
1) How can we determine if object X has “id” or not? Where is the list of exact criteria (the list of exact features) which would allow unambiguously determine if object X has “id”? As for example, does the amoebae have “id” or not? Pseudoscientists are unable to provide such list of criteria.
2) How can we determine if object X has “ego” or not? Where is the list of exact criteria (the list of exact features) which would allow unambiguously determine if object X has “ego”? As for example, does the amoebae have “ego” or not? Pseudoscientists are unable to provide such list of criteria.
3) How can we determine if object X has “super-ego” or not? Where is the list of exact criteria (the list of exact features) which would allow unambiguously determine if object X has “super-ego”? As for example, does the amoebae have “super-ego” or not? Pseudoscientists are unable to provide such list of criteria.

Pseudoscientists are unable to provide scientific definitions of the terms “id”, “ego”, and “super-ego”, pseudoscientists are unable to provide the list of criteria which would allow to determine if object X has “id/ego/super-ego” or not.
When a man uses a term/word which he is unable to define then it is quite obvious that such man does not understand himself what he is talking about, it is obvious that his speech is meaningless by definition.

It is interesting to note that the adepts of pseudoscientific claptrap with the name “psychoanalysis” do not even know that Sigmund Freud was “healing” his patients with cocaine, and that Sigmund Freud was cocaine addict himself, and that Freud's psychoanalytical theory was a by-product of his cocaine use.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigmund_Freud#Cocaine
As a medical researcher, Freud was an early user and proponent of cocaine as a stimulant as well as analgesic. He believed that cocaine was a cure for many mental and physical problems, and in his 1884 paper "On Coca" he extolled its virtues. Between 1883 and 1887 he wrote several articles recommending medical applications, including its use as an antidepressant. He narrowly missed out on obtaining scientific priority for discovering its anesthetic properties of which he was aware but had mentioned only in passing. (Karl Koller, a colleague of Freud's in Vienna, received that distinction in 1884 after reporting to a medical society the ways cocaine could be used in delicate eye surgery.) Freud also recommended cocaine as a cure for morphine addiction. He had introduced cocaine to his friend Ernst von Fleischl-Marxow who had become addicted to morphine taken to relieve years of excruciating nerve pain resulting from an infection acquired while performing an autopsy. His claim that Fleischl-Marxow was cured of his addiction was premature, though he never acknowledged he had been at fault. Fleischl-Marxow developed an acute case of "cocaine psychosis", and soon returned to using morphine, dying a few years later after more suffering from intolerable pain.
The application as an anesthetic turned out to be one of the few safe uses of cocaine, and as reports of addiction and overdose began to filter in from many places in the world, Freud's medical reputation became somewhat tarnished.
After the "Cocaine Episode" Freud ceased to publicly recommend use of the drug, but continued to take it himself occasionally for depression, migraine and nasal inflammation during the early 1890s, before discontinuing in 1896. In this period he came under the influence of his friend and confidant Fliess, who recommended cocaine for the treatment of the so-called nasal reflex neurosis. Fliess, who operated on the noses of several of his own patients, also performed operations on Freud and on one of Freud's patients whom he believed to be suffering from the disorder, Emma Eckstein. The surgery proved disastrous. It has been suggested that much of Freud's early psychoanalytical theory was a by-product of his cocaine use.

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http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health-july-dec11-addiction_10-17/
Freud published journal articles proclaiming cocaine was the cure. But he also had a more personal interest in the drug’s effects.
<…>
Freud loved the way cocaine made him feel.
<…>
In the 1890s, after almost killing a patient while under the influence of cocaine, Freud stopped using the drug.

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Question for other readers #4:
Who else thinks that he has "consciousness"? Please raise your hand and come closer. We will put your "consciousness" to the test.

I believe that I exhibit the behaviors labelled as 'conscious' does that count?


Hello, Dancing David, please answer the same three questions which were given to barehl:

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Question for the Dancing David #1:
Dancing David, please provide us the exact list of exact criteria (the list of exact features) which would allow unambiguously determine if object X has consciousness.
Just feel free to choose all the needed characteristics of object X (size, weight, color, smell, or whatever you might need) and when the list is complete, then show this list to us.
And we will put to the test your list of characteristics, we will test your list on real world examples to see if it works or not.
When a man uses a term/word which he is unable to define then it is quite obvious that such man does not understand himself what he is talking about, it is obvious that his speech is meaningless by definition, isn’t it?

Question for the Dancing David #2:
the consciousness is a 1) divisible object, or 2) indivisible object?
The feature divisibility/indivisibility is the most fundamental feature of the object, because it instantaneously reveals the fundamental flaws in the definition of the object.
So, what is your answer: the consciousness is a 1) divisible object, or 2) indivisible object?
Also please provide experimental proofs which would support your claim about “divisibility/indivisibility of consciousness”.

Question for the Dancing David #3:
Dancing David, please provide at least one evidence that Dancing David has “consciousness”.

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Similar task for other readers who are adepts of Sigmund Freud's theory of psychoanalysis.
In the three questions above (about “consciousness”) please replace the word “consciousness” with the word: 1) “id”, 2) “ego”, and 3) “super-ego”,
and then answer these questions.
 

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