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What is so bad about limited government?

Patrick_R

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Jul 13, 2009
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735
A classical liberal or a libertarian would be likely to agree in a limited government, that is a night watchman state.

The government’s job is to

1) Protect the people from foreign enemies
2) Protect the people from harming each other
3) Protect the people from government itself

To fulfill these functions the government defends the border, runs a court system and provides police protection.

Our rights are negative - life, liberty, property. The government does not guarantee you those things, but the government will work to prevent others from stealing it, defrauding you, attacking you, or killing you.

What is so offensive about this political position?
 
Who will look out for those without families who can't take care of themselves (children, elderly, disabled)? Please don't say private charities, that a libertarian pipe dream.
 
You're a caring person, right? So why not you?

Personally I have neither the time or training to do it. I don't however, mind paying taxes to support public education, medicare, medicaid and SSDI.

What is the alternative now, in the early 21st century?
 
I don't however, mind paying taxes to support public education, medicare, medicaid and SSDI.


I'm sure you don't mind paying your share. But do you want to fund everything, if nobody else chooses to contribute? Are you happy to pay twice your equitable share, because it's all voluntary and half the population chooses to give nothing?

We're back to the tyranny of the uncharitable.

Taxes are a way to avoid freeloading. That is, to avoid those who can pay, declaring that they won't pay. To avoid Daddy Warbucks sitting in his mansion sending the charity collectors away with a flea in their ear (and eventually they just stop calling), while the widow on a small pension with a soft heart goes without food to help every worthy cause she hears about (and there are plenty, because the charity collectors know who to ask).

Tax funding is also a way to make funding more equitable. Maybe Daddy Warbucks will give the money. But not to Jews. Or maybe only to Jews. Or not to unmarried mothers. The charities for the blind get lots of money, while those for incontinent Alzheimers sufferers get nothing.

Ain't freedom wonderful!

Rolfe.
 
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Oh, please.

The best thing you can say about government is that it's a charitable organization staffed by armed robbers who will kidnap you and keep you confined against your will if you don't donate? And it's okay because the majority says so?

In fact charity has nothing to do with government. Government is about administration of pooled resources for the common good.

If the governed agree that some amount of welfare for the needy contributes to the common good, and if those that are compelled to donate against their will also have an equal voice in setting policy, then it's all good.

There's no such thing as the "tyranny of the uncharitable". Unless the poor widow is poor because Daddy Warbucks took her property through fraud or theft, she's not entitled to a single copper penny of his wealth. At best, the fraction of his wealth that the govenment redistributes to her is a privilege conferred by her and Daddy Warbucks in collective agreement with the rest of her fellow citizens.
 
There are an awful lot of ways that people "harm each other".

For example, they might prepare food in unsanitary facilities, and then sell it.

They might burn leaded gas in their automobile, thus affecting the health of those nearby.

They might attempt to corner the market in a particularly important resource (e.g. food, electricity, health care), and then force people into near slavery in order to obtain it.

They might stand and watch while a person incapable of helping himself dies (quickly or slowly.

They might choose to remain totally ignorant of history or science, and as a consequence, vote for a very bad elected representative, who will inflict his bad form of government on everyone.

They might refuse to support people doing basic research, thus preventing advancement of the overall knowledge of the human race for the benefit of mankind.

OK. As the list goes on, it gets more and more of a stretch to cast those as "harming each other". They were meant to represent food safety, environmental legislation, predatory commercial practices, social safety nets, education, and basic science research. These are all things that some people say the government ought to avoid becoming involved in.

I disagree. In each case, government involvement is necessary to ensure that a vital service gets provided, without which not just the quality of life, but in some cases a basic freedom, is deprived from the people. The challenge is to recognize that when the government becomes involved in those issues, the government ends up depriving people of their liberty to some extent. Either they have to take money from people, which makes those people less free, or by becoming involved in providing a service, they drive out private service providers, who might offer more choices to the people.
 
I'm sure you don't mind paying your share. But do you want to fund everything, if nobody else chooses to contribute? Are you happy to pay twice your equitable share, because it's all voluntary and half the population chooses to give nothing?

Well it's not voluntary, ask Ed and Elaine Brown.
 
Oh, please.

The best thing you can say about government is that it's a charitable organization staffed by armed robbers who will kidnap you and keep you confined against your will if you don't donate? And it's okay because the majority says so?

In fact charity has nothing to do with government. Government is about administration of pooled resources for the common good.

If the governed agree that some amount of welfare for the needy contributes to the common good, and if those that are compelled to donate against their will also have an equal voice in setting policy, then it's all good.

There's no such thing as the "tyranny of the uncharitable". Unless the poor widow is poor because Daddy Warbucks took her property through fraud or theft, she's not entitled to a single copper penny of his wealth. At best, the fraction of his wealth that the govenment redistributes to her is a privilege conferred by her and Daddy Warbucks in collective agreement with the rest of her fellow citizens.


I suspect you have entirely misunderstood me. Which may well be my fault for having been unclear.

If the governed agree that some amount of welfare for the needy contributes to the common good, and if those that are compelled to donate against their will also have an equal voice in setting policy, then it's all good.


I agree entirely with that statement. I was merely responding to Patrick's apparent suggestion that looking after the less fortunate was something that could be left just to "caring people".

Rolfe.
 
Because I think that children shouldn't be punished for being born to the wrong parents.

With government, we have a social contract. A system that can be held accountable when it doesn't reach universal justice for all its citizens.

With charity, we have the hope that our charities might be lucky enough to get the funding this year to help. And if not, well that's just too bad.
 
Well it's not voluntary, ask Ed and Elaine Brown.


I don't even understand that. I was simply commenting on Patrick's apparent assertion that you, personally, could look after the less fortunate.

Why not turn our attention to Meadmaker's point, because he has expressed himself far better than I did.

Rolfe.
 
Because I think that children shouldn't be punished for being born to the wrong parents.

Or for being born with a severe disability. And that people should not be punished for living too long.

Do we really want to go back to a time when Jacob Riis had much too photograph?
 
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I don't even understand that. I was simply commenting on Patrick's apparent assertion that you, personally, could look after the less fortunate.

Why not turn our attention to Meadmaker's point, because he has expressed himself far better than I did.

Rolfe.

I meant to say that in the U.S. the paying of income tax is not voluntary.

Meadmaker is right, we can't rely on the "kindness of strangers" to make society operate efficiently and morally.
 
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A classical liberal or a libertarian would be likely to agree in a limited government, that is a night watchman state.

The government’s job is to

1) Protect the people from foreign enemies
2) Protect the people from harming each other
3) Protect the people from government itself

To fulfill these functions the government defends the border, runs a court system and provides police protection.

Our rights are negative - life, liberty, property. The government does not guarantee you those things, but the government will work to prevent others from stealing it, defrauding you, attacking you, or killing you.

What is so offensive about this political position?




Unfortunately, memes grow by "reproducing" via spreading to more and more people. They adopt sub-memes, like planks in a political platform, that tell their followers they'll feel better about themselves if they do this or that particular thing. This gains them followers, who then shove the idea into law, which, coincidentally, also spreads the meme's effect because it can now use the power of physical coercion to get non-believers to behave in a certain way, which is the meme's goal all along. It's about a mental worldview that may or may not have much bearing on reality, but goal, so to speak, is to get your real-world behavior to help spread the meme.


So the long and the short of it is certain beliefs, attitudes, and evolved ethical beliefs developed in meme mutations to try to gain more power, which is to say, spread by word or by force (once enough votes are achieved) human activity in the real world that supports the meme.

Religions adopted these care-for-everybody-and-everything attitudes, too, and for exactly the same reason -- competing memes, i.e. other religions, that didn't. lost followers because they didn't make their followers feel as good about themselves.

Very early non-Biblical descriptions of Christianity included noting, not negatively, how they care for the sick and poor, even at their own expense.


Note how political memes shoved religious off into a little corner, and slowly took over all the things religion did. Hospitals, care for sick, poor, and elderly. No matter how iron-clad the constitutional protections against growth of government were, it would crack eventually as ethical beliefs mutated, ratcheting up the importance of these things (strokes the populace) until they just flat-out asserted the power.

The proper course would have been to amend the Constitution to allow the government to do this. That would have happened eventually, but why wait, when you can just adopt a meme plank or two, and suddenly find what the Constitution means shifts because public attitudes have shifted, and, far worse, the sidekick meme that "and that's ok!"

Thus you don't have to wait a decade or two more. You can go do it right away under FDR!.



And don't say it's not an evolved ethic. Senator Byrd, one of the biggest senatorial wastes of money, got on the floor during the debate on the balanced budget amendment 15 years ago, and was furious to the point of literal tears dripping down his face at the horribleness of the amendment's requirement for a declared war or a congressional supermajority to borrow more than you take in.

He despaired of it "thwarting the will of the people", said will being 50.00001% or more. This actually threatens the spread of his meme master, and hence the meme mutates to adopt ethical, i.e. emotional, beliefs about how ungodly important is the raw, raw "will of the people." Thus he eviscerates the rationale behind supermajorities, which in turn was designed precisely to stop the winds of political change from making massive, permanent changes because some cute demagogue came along and briefly got his 50.00001%.

Supermajorities take time to build. Amendments take time to pass 3/4 the states to give people time to think about it beyond the whim of the moment. It's supposed to prevent demagoguery from asserting power due to transient outrage or overhyped concern.

So the meme that could ethicalize the importance of that into oblivion clearly would have an advantage.





And does.


:(
 
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I can't think of anything wrong at all with limited government- indeed I can't think of anyone but an ideologue who could think there is anything wrong with a limited government.
 
Actually it is. Simply leave the USA - the USA does not prevent anyone from leaving the USA (caveat imprisoned people etc.).

Yeah, but then I wouldn't be in the U.S., which was my original point.
 

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