What is pain really?

andyandy

anthropomorphic ape
andyandy
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Apr 30, 2006
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How should medical science evaluate subjective patient evaluations of pain reduction? - Are we any closer to being able to say whether this has a physiological or psychological root - or is it a false dichotomy to separate psychological from psyiological at all.....? Or are evaluations of pain reduction nothing more than an artefact of regression fallacy?

The question is specifically focused on pain management for chronic conditions, although it can be broadened to "pain" in general....

discuss :)
 
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What units do we use to measure consciousness?

No idea I'm afraid. I suspect that's 22nd century science you're asking about.
 
Soapy Sam said:
What units do we use to measure consciousness?

No idea I'm afraid. I suspect that's 22nd century science you're asking about.
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i think that would be in some respects the holy grail of science - to cross the subjective/objective divide....

maybe one day one could download one's conciousness onto a mainframe computer system for objective analysis....:D
 
Well from my purely subjective input: kidney stone = 9.5 on a potential 10 is most pain scale. Kidney stone + demoral = 1 on that same scale (within 5 minutes, the E.R. took on a warm golden glow).
 
andyandy said:
i think that would be in some respects the holy grail of science - to cross the subjective/objective divide....

maybe one day one could download one's conciousness onto a mainframe computer system for objective analysis....:D
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Sooner than you think.



















But I'm not supposed to talk about it...
 
andyandy said:
How should medical science evaluate subjective patient evaluations of pain reduction? - Are we any closer to being able to say whether this has a physiological or psychological root - or is it a false dichotomy to separate psychological from psyiological at all.....? Or are evaluations of pain reduction nothing more than an artefact of regression fallacy?
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I suffer from chronic pain. Its been over 10 years now. All I can provide is my opinion since I have not researched any studies on this subject.
I believe it is unrealistic to try to separate the physiological and psychological aspects. It is obviously not one or the other but degrees of both. Once again my opinion. As for being an artifact of regression fallacy, it also is not an absolute. Of course sometimes pain reduction is regression fallacy. But speaking from experience of weeks of unending chronic pain, this does not cover all reduction in pain.
Would like to add more to this topic but not to be cheeky, I am hurting to much to type anymore. I will check back tomorrow. I am more than willing to add my experience to any questions or discussions on this matter.
Peace
Momzahippie
 
When I was going through the unending migraine in February/March, I kept telling myself, "It's not that bad. You're not dying so it can't really be that bad." Regardless, I still ended up sucking down the meds, laying in dark, relatively quiet rooms, and unable to concentrate enough to study.

So while that pain was primarily physiological, I did also find that it made every other little ache and pain feel that much worse, e.g. when the weather shifted, my old break would flare up to a much stronger degree than normal.

And every damn time, I found myself asking, "What the christ ever happened to the whole gate-control-theory!?" :D
 
Tell you one thing- If you put the electrodes of a TENS machine on your temples- as you do in the spirit of scientific investigation, and crank it to max, it nips like a m**********r, but it's not like the EST we had when I were a lad!
(And they say humans are smarter than the average bear. On what evidence?)
 
I've often wondered the same thing about pain - whether some day, we'll be able to measure it on an emperical scale of some sort. It'd be a cool idea for a horror movie of some sort... a demented physician in his basement, performing ghastly experiments on unwilling subjects to create such a scale.

That said, maybe it should remain in the realm of fiction - until less gruesome tests can be devised. One Josef Mengele was one too many.
 
perhaps i need to clarify what exactly is pain first....

this is my understanding....based on half remembered school biology lessons, so it could be wrong...:)

take the example of an external stimulus, say a hot plate. I touch that plate and that stimulus is sent via the nervous system to the brain where it's interpreted, and then sent back to the source of the stimulus.....

so where is the pain actually generated? Can it be said to exist at source, or does it exist at the point of the neurological interpretation, or does it only exist when the neurological interpretation is sent back to the source of the stimulus?

and how does acute pain, such as that from an external stimulus like a hot plate differ from chronic pain?

this is wiki...

Chronic pain was originally defined as pain that has lasted 6 months or longer. It is now defined as "the disease of pain." Its origin, duration, intensity, and specific symptoms vary. The one consistent fact of chronic pain is that, as a disease, it cannot be understood in the same terms as acute pain, and the failure to make this distinction (particularly in those who suffer chronic pain) has been and continues to be the cause of multi-dimensional suffering, depression, social isolation, and helplessness. The failure to recognize chronic pain as substantially different from acute pain cannot be blamed on the medical profession: it is a societal lapse.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_and_nociception

comments? Is chronic pain "the disease of pain"? Is this a helpful distinction to make from acute pain?
 
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andyandy said:
perhaps i need to clarify what exactly is pain first....

this is my understanding....based on half remembered school biology lessons, so it could be wrong...:)

take the example of an external stimulus, say a hot plate. I touch that plate and that stimulus is sent via the nervous system to the brain where it's interpreted, and then sent back to the source of the stimulus.....

so where is the pain actually generated? Can it be said to exist at source, or does it exist at the point of the neurological interpretation, or does it only exist when the neurological interpretation is sent back to the source of the stimulus?

and how does acute pain, such as that from an external stimulus like a hot plate differ from chronic pain?

this is wiki...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_and_nociception

comments? Is chronic pain "the disease of pain"? Is this a helpful distinction to make from acute pain?
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two sigs - one too brain and back that registers the pain - one that bounces back from a nearer nerve junction to make you pull back quicker than pain signal can get there.
 
andyandy said:
so where is the pain actually generated? Can it be said to exist at source, or does it exist at the point of the neurological interpretation, or does it only exist when the neurological interpretation is sent back to the source of the stimulus?
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There is no real way to answer except to say "all of the above"; and none fo the above in and of itself. It is probably wrong to separate components out like they are components. Pain arises through the interactions of all those levels of interpretation/computation.

and how does acute pain, such as that from an external stimulus like a hot plate differ from chronic pain?
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That one's a bit easier. Acute pain arises directly from C and A-delta fiber stimulation transmitted through brainstem to thalamus to cortex. Chronic pain is much more complex and has many possible sources -- one of which appears to be a wind-up phenomenon that can occur in the spinal cord, and/or in the thalamus, and/or in the cortex. I don't think we know enough about the multisynaptic relay systems in the brainstem to comment.
 
I was around 11 years old when I first came to the realization that pain is not normaly felt every moment of your life. To me pain was like sound and light -- something always there. It was just another one of my senses that was never in an off position.

To ask if pain is physical or mental is like asking if sight is physical or mental.

I don't see how you can make an argument either way while excluding the other. They are both physical and mental.

My pain comes from my muscles. Using them, or touching them always causes pain. Touch is synonymous with pain for me. There is no such thing as one without the other.

The severity of the pain is a mental measure for me. I can feel just as much pain now as some other moment, but it may be easier or harder to bear. It drains me. It takes away some of what I have to get me through the day. Luckily, sometimes, I don't mind so much and that makes it 'hurt less'. Whatever that means.
 
fuelair said:
two sigs - one too brain and back that registers the pain - one that bounces back from a nearer nerve junction to make you pull back quicker than pain signal can get there.
Click to expand...

I've often noticed this. Stick a finger in boiling water and whip it out. There are two quite distinct pain signals. The first is enough to jerk the finger back (even if you do the experiment on purpose). The second hits after you have already reacted.

Two different signals by two different routes.

But jab a foot and an elbow simultaneously into boiling water and the first signal from both arrives simultaneously, though the foot is further from the brain than the elbow. One signal is time-delayed, so you experience the actual simultaneity of immersion. The body plays that trick on us all the time.
http://www.consciousentities.com/libet.htm
 
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