What is good about religion?

[cloudshipsrule]

What is it good for? Is it worth it? Is faith deserving of respect? Why? Isn't it time we outgrew this nonsense or at least turned it into something less virulent like Buddhism or Unitarianism or whatever--the kind where people just pick and choose and use religion to feel whatever comforts them in regards to death? I find in unnecessary. And I sure haven't heard a good reason for presuming otherwise.

If you believe this, but 50 million christians believe just the opposite, who is right? I don't think you can speak for the christians. You can only voice your opinion based on your own beliefs.

 

[Lonewulf]

Why don't we need to do our best to find out the original intent of every single other doctrine that has ever been published? Have fun with that project, but I'm not gonna waste my time.

 

[rocketdodger]

Well, we have the doctrine and we need our best to find out the original intent.

You have a self-contradictory text, which you yourself admit cannot be taken literally in all cases because some of the messages, you admit, are definitely NOT moral.

Thus, any "original intent" is already crap. So you would be trying to find the "best" intent, which would be as much of the "original" as you can keep, except for the stuff you disagree with. Which wouldn't be "original intent" at all, it would be your interpretation, which cannot be shown to be the correct interpretation by any means. Which is what we have been telling you is the problem with religion...

 

[Lonewulf]

If you believe this, but 50 million christians believe just the opposite, who is right?

Argument from popularity.

I don't think you can speak for the christians. You can only voice your opinion based on your own beliefs.

Except that belief and faith alone can be demonstrated to have very little to no positive effect on the development of any society.

In millenia of religious control in the dark ages, you had very little progress, which was achingly slow and nearly always thanks to those that come closest to the scientists of their time. (Such as in the Library of Alexandria)

In a few hundred years of scientific pursuit, we are where we are today.

It wasn't through faith or "feeling God" that we got to where we are. Thus, I know which horse I'll bet on. You can bet on the "faith" horse if you want to, but it's nearly a guaranteed loss.

 

[rocketdodger]

If you believe this, but 50 million christians believe just the opposite, who is right? I don't think you can speak for the christians. You can only voice your opinion based on your own beliefs.

Yes you are correct.

We can, however, let people speak for themselves, in the form of statistics. I would be interested to see the numbers of people raised religious who are no longer versus those raised non-religious who are currently, as well as breakdowns of the circumstances surrounding their cross-over.

Certainly, in the case of fundamentalist sects, we can claim that we are right in assuming people would, all else being equal, prefer secularity (or at least a lighter version of their religion). The fact that almost nobody joins the Amish, yet many Amish leave their ranks if given a choice, speaks volumes about their religion. The same can be said of women and Islam -- what is the influx versus the outflux?

I don't have the data (perhaps it doesn't exist) but I would say on the whole there is a greater number of intelligent and educated people leaving religion than joining it, out of their own volition, which doesn't bode well for religion.

 

[cloudshipsrule]

It wasn't through faith or "feeling God" that we got to where we are.

Funny thing is we're quickly leaving where we are, and where we're going may not be better than where we are today.

 

[cloudshipsrule]

The fact that almost nobody joins the Amish, yet many Amish leave their ranks if given a choice, speaks volumes about their religion.

I think one can see positives with the lifestyle choices the Amish make, but most people would hesitate to give up their 'stuff' to pursue such a lifestyle. Materialism is a more powerful god than that of the Amish.

 

[articulett]

If you believe this, but 50 million christians believe just the opposite, who is right? I don't think you can speak for the christians. You can only voice your opinion based on your own beliefs.

Or-- you can look for facts. Actually 50 million Christians believe 50 million different things about what god is and what he wants and why he killed his kid who was him because of supposed "original sin" whatever that means... And millions of Muslims have a very different belief about what god wants and what faith is for and who lives happily ever after and then there are the possible majority of the world who believe in reincarnation and so forth.

I can voice my opinion about anything. What I was wondering is if there are any facts other than opinions that show that faith is good for something or that there is something divine out there that some people have tapped in on-- is there evidence that there is an invisible guy judging mankind or immortal souls? Because if not, that makes all religion equally likely to be true. So given the complete lack of evidence for what it might be good for in some invisible immeasurable unlikely afterlife-- what is it good for here.

And given that it leads to banality like some of the faithful on this forum, I would have to say that it is NOT worth it. It clearly makes some people... well... stupid. Illogical. Goofy. Easily manipulated by those claiming to know what god wants. If you can get people to believe that faith is great-- essential for salvation-- then just think of what you can get them to do in the name of someone tapped into the "right" faith. Fly airplanes into buildings perhaps? Committ mass suicide? Start a war? Act like a bigot while pretending to be open minded and compassionate.

Every time I read the banality of the faithful, I feel so glad to have thought my way free-- and so very glad not to have inflicted it on my kid. What a waste of an evolved brain.

 

[articulett]

Argument from popularity.


Except that belief and faith alone can be demonstrated to have very little to no positive effect on the development of any society.

In millenia of religious control in the dark ages, you had very little progress, which was achingly slow and nearly always thanks to those that come closest to the scientists of their time. (Such as in the Library of Alexandria)

In a few hundred years of scientific pursuit, we are where we are today.

It wasn't through faith or "feeling God" that we got to where we are. Thus, I know which horse I'll bet on. You can bet on the "faith" horse if you want to, but it's nearly a guaranteed loss.

It certainly is... if just one is right, then that makes the vast majority of people who lived on this planet absolutely wrong. I think it's arrogant that theists never consider that the odds are very clear that they are in that majority. Everyone is going to hell in at least some peoples' religions... The fact is-- not all faiths can be right; But all the faiths can be wrong. This is especially likely given that people are very good at fooling themselves and others when it comes to "divine forces"-- they've been doing it for eons. And each faith has as much evidence in it's favor as the faiths they laugh at. There is no more reason to believe in Mormonism than there is to believe in Scientology or Catholicism. There just isn't.

There is no reason to believe that any kind of consciousness (souls, gods, demons, fairies, succubi, etc.) can exist without a living material brain. Religions tell you that not only that there is supposed "life after death"-- but that it will be horrific unless you follow their simple plan--give your allegiance to them.

 

[articulett]

Funny thing is we're quickly leaving where we are, and where we're going may not be better than where we are today.

Fearmongering that infers more than it says without saying anything at all. I think we are all happy no one is tossing virgins in volcanoes anymore or routinely performing exorcisms on the mentally ill (or burning them as witches.) I have a feeling will survive increasing enlightenment just fine.

 

[rocketdodger]

I think one can see positives with the lifestyle choices the Amish make, but most people would hesitate to give up their 'stuff' to pursue such a lifestyle. Materialism is a more powerful god than that of the Amish.

Please give me one single reason why someone wouldn't be able to live a simple agrarian life without having to accept all the other B.S. the Amish throw in with the deal?

It isn't that materialism is too powerful -- many, many, many secular people who lead lives close to nature would disagree with that. Its that the Amish forcibly oppress their own kind and everyone knows it except the other Amish.

 

[Lonewulf]

Funny thing is we're quickly leaving where we are, and where we're going may not be better than where we are today.

This post is meaningless without any details.

As far as I see it, the things that I fear in the near and far future has to do with people that base their entire life styles on faith, not on life styles without it.

Materialism is a more powerful god than that of the Amish.

Yes, because the evil materialistic world of today is far worse than when the Church told people what to do and how to live, killing or torturing them if they didn't do what they wanted.

And yes, because material items are so awful.

Sorry, but if you want to get rid all of your material possessions and go back to the middle ages, go ahead. But don't mind me if I laugh behind your back.

 

[articulett]

Please give me one single reason why someone wouldn't be able to live a simple agrarian life without having to accept all the other B.S. the Amish throw in with the deal?

It isn't that materialism is too powerful -- many, many, many secular people who lead lives close to nature would disagree with that. Its that the Amish forcibly oppress their own kind and everyone knows it except the other Amish.

The Amish get ALL their education from the bible... and still believe the earth is flat. The only songs they are allowed to sing are hymns... the only literature is the bible. Brainwashing for god.

 

[articulett]

This post is meaningless without any details.

As far as I see it, the things that I fear in the near and far future has to do with people that base their entire life styles on faith, not on life styles without it.


Yes, because the evil materialistic world of today is far worse than when the Church told people what to do and how to live, killing or torturing them if they didn't do what they wanted.

And yes, because material items are so awful.

Sorry, but if you want to get rid all of your material possessions and go back to the middle ages, go ahead. But don't mind me if I laugh behind your back.

When it comes to wealth-- Christians seem to be the first to ignore the part of the bible where it says "it's easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich guy to get into heaven." Oh, and the part about giving up your possessions and following Jesus...

Of course, Jim Jones followers paid heed to the latter.

Christian doublespeak is so mind numbing.

As I recall, the folks running Oral Roberts Christian University were very abusive of finances... and Jim and Tammy Baker... whatever makes people "addicted to wealth" or "things"-- faith sure isn't the antidote. It does allow preachers to manipulate the masses to give more to them so that they can live happily ever after in heaven.

 

[articulett]

This post is meaningless without any details.

As far as I see it, the things that I fear in the near and far future has to do with people that base their entire life styles on faith, not on life styles without it.


Yes, because the evil materialistic world of today is far worse than when the Church told people what to do and how to live, killing or torturing them if they didn't do what they wanted.

And yes, because material items are so awful.

Sorry, but if you want to get rid all of your material possessions and go back to the middle ages, go ahead. But don't mind me if I laugh behind your back.

When it comes to wealth-- Christians seem to be the first to ignore the part of the bible where it says "it's easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich guy to get into heaven." Oh, and the part about giving up your possessions and following Jesus...

Of course, Jim Jones followers paid heed to the latter.

Christian doublespeak is so mind numbing.

As I recall, the folks running Oral Roberts Christian University were very abusive of finances... and Jim and Tammy Baker... whatever makes people "addicted to wealth" or "things"-- faith sure isn't the antidote. It does allow preachers to manipulate the masses to give more to them so that they can live happily ever after in heaven.

 

[six7s]

The Amish get ALL their education from the bible... and still believe the earth is flat. The only songs they are allowed to sing are hymns... the only literature is the bible. Brainwashing for god.

Not brain washing... more diluting

The hymns and scriptures are the medium that is used to create an omni-potent remedy from their succussed brains

Seems they got their Hanumans mixed up with their Hahnemanns

 

[rocketdodger]

The Amish get ALL their education from the bible... and still believe the earth is flat. The only songs they are allowed to sing are hymns... the only literature is the bible. Brainwashing for god.

Yep. Seriously, arguing that "materialism" is the reason more people don't join the Amish is about as accurate as saying "materialism" is the reason more people don't emigrate to North Korea.

 

[shadron]

Well, according to his theology (Catholicism) you just needed to get your last rites... which he did... all sins forgiven. Presto. And for many, Christ forgives everything so long as you believe in him. Some more liberal Christians don't believe in hell. Protestantism favors belief in Christ (no sin can't be forgiven except blaspheming the holy spirit per the fundies) over good deeds.

You need to watch what you're saying about religions which you don't know too much about.

In Roman Catholicism, The sacrament of Extreme Unction (Last Rites) doesn't "clear you for heaven"; it's the sacrament of Penance (usually given just before) which does that. Indeed, it is a further sin to accept EU (or any other sacrament but Penance) while in a state of unconfessed mortal sin. Confession requires that you are truly sorry for your sin, make a willful declaration to sin no more, and that you perform the penance assigned in atonement. Perhaps Hitler had a clear conscience after accepting Penance, but many would argue that if he did the he was willfully misleading himself or was not in possession of the faculties needed to will himself to sin no more. In any case, he immediately committed the mortal sin of suicide, and that is that (of course, he could be excused even that if he was mentally absent, so in the end god has to use teh cosmic tape ruler and stopwatch to sort it out).

The Catholic church requires good works along with faith to be saved; this was a major bone of contention with Martin Luther, who maintained that faith alone was sufficient, and thus that purgatory and expiation of punishment was useless. Most German-protestant religions continue to maintain this.

While I am a long time atheist, a Catholic elementary/secondary school education is sometimes a useful thing.

 

[articulett]

I had CCD-- and a general purpose Catholic upbringing. Apparently it didn't stick nor my memories of who is saved and how. I never could figure out the exact rubric for salvation and was ever angst filled that I might be "believing the wrong way" or not following the right infallible guy or not be thankful enough that god killed his kid for me.

 

[shadron]

I never could figure out the exact rubric for salvation and was ever angst filled that I might be "believing the wrong way" or not following the right infallible guy or not be thankful enough that god killed his kid for me.

Ah - one of those kids that had to go to school on Saturday, and left us notes in our desks. I can identify with you're feelings.

Pat Condel's talks, like Pen & Teller's ******** episodes, are great polemics. They don't prove anything, but then they aren't supposed to - they are designed to get the viewer to think more deeply about the things in the talk that he agrees with, and that are irritating. Good stuff, IMO.