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What is Dark Matter?

My dictionary is from 1930....So we have a new definition of 'tangible'? I thought it meant literally 'what you can feel and touch' not just 'what you could interact with without knowing you are interacting with it'

Wow, I really dont want to debate the english language, there are other forums for that, but Im lost.

Except in the case of neutrinos, they do not interact with you through the EM force, which is that force which leads to most sensations. (And things like the impermeability of 'solid objects;)

They do however interact gravitationaly.

So while they pass through you, because they do not interact with your EM fields, they are effected by and effect other masses.

:)
 
I can only speak in broad terms - ie, in the equation - because my knowledge is limited to the doco I watched last night, and I dont know any of the equations. Im counting on you guys to know them.

But the point is that it's not about equations at all. Dark matter is, at its most fundamental, simply an observation. The equations only come later when we try to figure out what could be causing that observation. Or in this case, as already mentioned, a whole set of independent observations.

I believe the earth has an iron core, but I understand its represented in different ways. We dont agree on its specifics. Dark matter strikes me as the same thing - way into the grey area.

That's actually a pretty good example. To start with, we make a variety of observations. First we notice that the Earth has a global magnetic field. Then, completely separately, we look at the way different waves from Earthquakes spread across the planet. Both these observation, and others, lead us to the conclusion that there is a region inside the planet with properties different from the rocks we can actually see, and we decide to call it the core. We then start trying to figure out from all these observations exactly what the core is and how and why it results in these particular observations and not something else.

It's exactly the same for dark matter. We have a set of observations, including things such as the details of how things orbit within galaxies, what the cosmic background radiation looks like, how fast galaxies themselves are moving, and so on. All these separate observations taken together lead us to the conclusion that there is some gravitational influence that we hadn't previously noticed. We call that dark matter. Just as with the Earth's core, that's nothing more than a label for something that starts off being almost entirely unknown. And just like the core, we then use all those observations to try to work out exactly what it is and how it works.

Ultimately, there's nothing special about dark matter. The reasoning behind it is exactly the same as the reasoning behind every scientific discovery - notice something that doesn't quite fit with existing ideas, give it a name and try to figure out what's going on. The only real difference is the difficulty in first discovering and then later investigating it. And the reason for that is quite simple - we've already discovered and investigated the easy stuff. If you can see and pick up something with your human eyes and hands, then so could people thousands of years ago. So most (I won't say all since there can always be stuff we've missed) of the things left to discover are things that unassisted human senses can't detect themselves. That doesn't make them any less real, and it doesn't mean it's all just silly people playing with meaningless equations, but it does mean it can be hard for the layperson to accept since there's just no way to understand them without first understanding all the equations and complex equipment needed to detect them.
 
Ok....I know Im gonna cop it for this one....but isnt the whole idea of dark matter like a leap of faith? I can see why in the equation it must exist, but so far, it doesnt. Its just a theory. To me its like saying "The ghost is there because it has to be, I just cant prove it" why exactly is belief in dark matter different?

If you saw a guy straining and struggling to carry a bulging canvas bag, would you regard it as a leap of faith that there is something heavy inside the bag? That's more or less the situation we're in, although in this case we have many more measurements than just one (let's say the guy with the bag is also standing on a scale that reads "500kg").

Isnt it possible that dark matter is spirit/conciouness/thought/soul energy? They have similar descriptions.

What?

And finally.....If there is no dark matter at all....What are other explanations for the speed of galaxies? Is there any theory other than dark matter that would explain it?

There are alternate explanations, yes. But the interesting ones are mathematical theories that make specific predictions that can be compared to what we actually observe, and so far none of them have been able to account for all the observations.
 
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Just to amplify Sol's point, it's my impression from what I've seen on it that clouds of dark matter filling and surrounding clusters of galaxies can be observed and mapped by their (weak) lensing effect on the images of more distant stuff in the background.

It is not uncommon to plot "contour maps" showing the variation of density of the clouds. It's like how you would see a clean transparent lens in front of the wall of your livingroom---by its effect on the light passing thru, distorting the images of familiar stuff. (except the familiar stuff is distant galaxies)

So we actually CAN see these large irregular shaped clouds of dark matter and they are very interesting to study.
 
Here is a key 2006 "Bullet Cluster" paper. It has some pictures and although technical is not especially hard to read.
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0611496
DM interacts with light, but only gravitationally. It bend rays of light the way any concentration of mass does. So it "lenses".
...
Ive heard it said on this forum that ignoring reality is taking away from its beauty, that not understanding how it really is means a lesser existance to that individual. One of the scientists on this doco actually said, in the invention of dark matter, they were ignoring what was really happening.

I agree the title of this doco was inflammatory, the whole idea was skewed towards disproving the big bang theory,...

Before they started using gravitational lensing to observe and study and map the clouds of DM, it was constructive and legitimate to propose modifications of the law of gravity as alternative explanations for some of the observed effects (galaxies holding together in spite of revolving too fast for their apparent mass.)

Mordehai Milgrom did that in 1983, Jacob Bekenstein in 2004, John Moffat in 2006. As it happens these guys are all rather old now FWIW. Perhaps it shouldn't matter. It is getting harder to find qualified people who will deny the existence of DM. You hear less and less about these alternative versions of gravity which avoid the need for it.

They don't work, partly because DM has been discovered to participate in many different observable things at many different scales. The alternatives devised between 1980-2006 were focused on explaining one or two phenomena and wouldn't explain the other evidence that was accumulating.

You can still find a few diehards, but it seems to be a closed chapter.

A significant historical corner was turned with the report on "the Bullet Cluster" which used gravitational lensing to study the DM participation in the collision of two clusters of galaxies, together with their two accompanying clouds of DM.

SBS2 Australian television sounds like it makes an effort to be provocative :D
 
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Okay Ive gotta go get ready for work but I just want to say ThankYou Cheetah, I'll be back to read this tomorrow cos Im not processing properly right now and I really want to understand this.

Observing dark matter, that would be cool.
 
ThankYou Cheetah, I'll be back to read this tomorrow cos Im not processing properly right now and I really want to understand this.

My pleasure.

You might be wondering why we don't use gravity to detect these individual particles. The reason is that gravity is actually very weak, verrrry weak, despite what it feels like some days. :)
We only notice gravity on a day to day basis because normal matter tends to clump together in lumps (and gravity adds up), something dark matter cannot do.
A single particle zipping around is just too light (even a pretty heavy one, as particles go) for us to detect using gravity.
In fact gravity is about 4200000000000000000000000000 times weaker than the EF, and that's a LOT!

That is why you can tie a piece of string around a brick and pick it up, because the string is held together by the EF, but all the gravity combined of all the particles constituting the whole earth (about 6000000000000000000000000 kilograms worth of particles) are not enough to break the piece of string. Unless you yank it!

(Sorry for explaining it using a few numbers, hope I didn't lose you there :D)
 
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Cheers again Cheetah, numbers did throw me, but I still got the point.

I was wrong to imply that the spirit world is un-moving. I meant that a walker usually views it as a replica of the physical world, but it is under constant change. Its ok, Im so not going to go there.

Thankyou all so much for this, I hope you dont mind me using you as my tutors? I think I mentioned in my first post the 'doco' was purposefully inflammatory/provocative. Cant make good TV without that I suppose.

Ok, thoughts arent energy, but am I wrong to think that they produce energy? Doesnt a biochemical reaction produce energy?

Is dark matter affected by gravity, or anything in the EF spectrum at all? Or havnt we got that far yet?

If it sounds like Im talking crap, I apologise and reiterate - I ADMIT MY IGNORANCE. The total of my knowledge is this doco, some years fascinated by a telescope and a high school science class that was for dummies but had a talented professor.
 
I was wrong to imply that the spirit world is un-moving. I meant that a walker usually views it as a replica of the physical world, but it is under constant change. Its ok, Im so not going to go there.

Huh?? Thought we were talking about reality, so 'not going there' is a great idea.


Is dark matter affected by gravity, or anything in the EF spectrum at all?

Since, as I explained, the particles do have mass, yes absolutely. That is the reason we know it's there, as a bunch of previous posters have explained, with examples and everything.
As far as the EF, no (the spectrum is irrelevant to this point and doesn't matter). I thought I explained that, try reading my posts again, both of them, carefully. :)
 
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Ok, thoughts arent energy, but am I wrong to think that they produce energy? Doesnt a biochemical reaction produce energy?
That depends, some absorb and some release. But by and large energy will go in and be dissipate , metabolism and all that.

When a neuron 'fires', it open channels in the cell membrane, some flow out of the cell due to osmotic pressure, some flow in. This causes a change in polarity in the difference across the cell membrane, it travels down the axon causing a release of neurotransmitter.
Action potentialWP

Is dark matter affected by gravity, or anything in the EF spectrum at all? Or havnt we got that far yet?

[/QUOTE]

Yes, dark matter in theory is effected by gravity, but not by the electromagnetic force.
 
Just to point out that dark matter doesn't have to have zero interaction with electromagnetism. Axions are a notable candidate particle that would turn into photons in the presence of a very strong magnetic field, for example.
 
Just to point out that dark matter doesn't have to have zero interaction with electromagnetism. Axions are a notable candidate particle that would turn into photons in the presence of a very strong magnetic field, for example.

Sweet, so weakly interacting, extremely weakly.

:)
 

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