Split Thread What is Communism

[theprestige]

What, according to you is a "legitimate role" of government?

Taxation.

 

[Trausti]

The Big Dog has left the building – in fact, he did so years ago – but I finally understand how he could get the idea that Das Kapital by Karl Marx, books that are all about economy and not at all about religion, superstition or atheism, was the 'atheist Bible.'

The notion that the communist countries of the 20th Century replaced traditional religion with state religion is just kind of a given. With its own set of unquestionable beliefs, new list of saints, and vision that salvation required studious adherence to the state catechism.

 

[ahhell]

The Big Dog has left the building – in fact, he did so years ago – but I finally understand how he could get the idea that Das Kapital by Karl Marx, books that are all about economy and not at all about religion, superstition or atheism, was the 'atheist Bible.'
This video helped me understand:



Drew McCoy usually makes pretty long videos, but they are also usually worthwhile. This one definitely was. And I actually spent more time than watching it than just the 44 minutes because I had to pause to take in all the Chick tracts and other fundamentalist Christian and CIA anti-communist propaganda.
I assume that this other recent video from him, American Christianity Is a Capitalist Cult (July 14, 2026 – 28 min.) will be just as interesting and enlightening, but I haven't watched it yet.

Minor nit to pick, "Bible" as long been a term to describe any book or document that is considered the most important document in an area. Thus, AISC 316, The Manual of Steel Construction, is on occasion called the steel bible. There is no need for a book to be about religion or religious in nature to be called a bible.

So, Das Kapital is certainly not the Atheist Bible, but it wouldn't be out of line to call it the Marxist Bible, or even the communist bible. But to be fair, the Communist Manifest would probably be the work that fills that role for commies.

 

[Susheel]

So, Das Kapital is certainly not the Atheist Bible, but it wouldn't be out of line to call it the Marxist Bible, or even the communist bible. But to be fair, the Communist Manifest would probably be the work that fills that role for commies.

There is a communist Bible and Das Kapital is not it. It is called the Manifesto of the Communist Party.

 

[theprestige]

One thing I've noticed about this thread and other conversations on this forum is how defensive non-communists get about criticisms of communism. And how defensive socialists get when you call them socialists.

 

[dann]

The notion that the communist countries of the 20th Century replaced traditional religion with state religion is just kind of a given. With its own set of unquestionable beliefs, new list of saints, and vision that salvation required studious adherence to the state catechism.

If only!
You prove again and again that you know as little about communism as you do about what you call "communist countries." I think you confuse the cult of christianity with the cult of Trump.

I know that education is frowned upon in MAGA, but you really need to educate yourself.
You can start here:
Pope Francis visits Fidel (grandma.cu, Sep 20, 2015)
Raúl meets Pope Francis in Rome (grandma.cu, May 12, 2015)
The President of the Republic declares an official period of mourning for the death of Pope Francis (granma.cu, April 24, 2025)
As for other religions, I have mentioned Afro-Cuban Santeria several times on this forum.

Religion in the Soviet Union: Christianity (Wikipedia)
Orthodox Christians constituted a majority of believers in the Soviet Union. In the late 1980s, three Orthodox churches claimed substantial memberships there: the Russian Orthodox Church, the Georgian Orthodox Church, and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church(AOC). They were members of the major confederation of Orthodox churches in the world, generally referred to as the Eastern Orthodox Church. The first two functioned openly and were tolerated by the state, but the Ukrainian AOC was not permitted to function openly.

Catholicism was very popular in Poland. The irony is that the slow dying of religion in that country didn't really begin until it became full-blown capitalist:

Catholic Church in Poland (Wikipedia)
In the early 2000s, 99% of all children born in Poland were baptized Catholic. In 2015, the church recorded that 97.7% of Poland's population was Catholic. Other statistics suggested this proportion of adherents to Catholicism could be as low as 85%. The rate of decline has been described as "devastating" to the former social prestige and political influence that the Catholic Church in Poland once enjoyed.

Minor nit to pick, "Bible" as long been a term to describe any book or document that is considered the most important document in an area. Thus, AISC 316, The Manual of Steel Construction, is on occasion called the steel bible. There is no need for a book to be about religion or religious in nature to be called a bible.

So, Das Kapital is certainly not the Atheist Bible, but it wouldn't be out of line to call it the Marxist Bible, or even the communist bible. But to be fair, the Communist Manifest would probably be the work that fills that role for commies.

You can call it the Marxist Bible if you want to. It makes as much or as little sense as calling On the Origin of Species the Evolutionist Bible.
The Big Dog's references to Das Kapital as the Atheist Bible appeared in this (very long) thread from 2018: Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful
At the time, I pointed out that there are almost no references to religion in Das Kapital. No surprise, really, since it's about economy: Das Kapital. Kritik der politischen Ökonomie.

 

[dann]

Melania Trump teaches ... communism!

Yes, the First Lady (isn't she the third or fourth?) was on Fox News to tell Brian Kilmeade what life was like in Slovenia before capitalism:

Trump Can’t Find Rubio, Pirro Tackles Meteorite Corruption & Melania Gets a Sequel (The Daily Show on YouTube, Sep 24, 2026 – 8:40 min.)
Trump can’t find Marco Rubio during his U.N. speech, and Jeanine Pirro seizes a Martian meteorite for some reason (shouldn’t that be the Space Force’s job?). Desi Lydic breaks down the headlines, including a BIG week for First Lady Melania Trump, who’s launching her second documentary passion project and putting Brian Kilmeade to sleep in the process.

4:44–> Desi Lydic: She's from Slovenia, which means that she can warn their FOX viewers about the danger of Communism.
Brian Kilmeade: Why is it that Eastern Europeans like yourself, fully understand the gift of freedom and liberty better than Western Europeans, and sometimes, better than Americans? What is it about how you grew up?
Desi Lydic: Classic FOX, lobbing a softball, knowing that Melania is the perfect person to talk about how terrible growing up under Communism is.
Melania: I grew up under the Communism, and actually, I didn't miss anything. I feel, I had a very beautiful childhood, and my parents provide a beautiful child for my family.
Desi Lydic: Damn, Kilmeade lobbed up a softball and Melania spiked it right into his nuts.
'Workers of the world be blessed.'
It didn't go as planned at all.
You can almost hear the FOX News director going, 'Quick cut to an immigrant shoplifting, transgender swimmer. Anything.´

Doesn't she understand anything?! Doesn't she know that MAGA is trying to resurrect the Red Scare for the midterms??

 

[dann]

There is a communist Bible and Das Kapital is not it. It is called the Manifesto of the Communist Party.

The problem with the Manifesto is that Marx and Engels wrote it when they were in their late twenties, i.e. a long time before Marx's tremendous work on the political economy of capitalism. The first edition of Das Kapital was published almost twenty years later.

A long Marxist article about what the Manifesto got right – but also about its shortcomings:
The Communist Manifesto – A flawed pamphlet — but still better than its good reputation today (GegenStandpunkt, 2014 – translated from the German version, 1998)

 

[ahhell]

If only!
You prove again and again that you know as little about communism as you do about what you call "communist countries." I think you confuse the cult of christianity with the cult of Trump.


I know that education is frowned upon in MAGA, but you really need to educate yourself.
You can start here:
Pope Francis visits Fidel (grandma.cu, Sep 20, 2015)
Raúl meets Pope Francis in Rome (grandma.cu, May 12, 2015)
The President of the Republic declares an official period of mourning for the death of Pope Francis (granma.cu, April 24, 2025)
As for other religions, I have mentioned Afro-Cuban Santeria several times on this forum.


Catholicism was very popular in Poland. The irony is that the slow dying of religion in that country didn't really begin until it became full-blown capitalist:



You can call it the Marxist Bible if you want to. It makes as much or as little sense as calling On the Origin of Species the Evolutionist Bible.
The Big Dog's references to Das Kapital as the Atheist Bible appeared in this (very long) thread from 2018: Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful
At the time, I pointed out that there are almost no references to religion in Das Kapital. No surprise, really, since it's about economy: Das Kapital. Kritik der politischen Ökonomie.

I will let commies and Marxists decide for themselves what their most important founding document might be. I'm just saying that "the Bible of....." has none sacral meaning in colloquial speech. It's a nit I pick because I've run across a few atheists who deny that and complain about the use of "the Bible of ....." in any context other than the Christian Bible, which is rather silly.

ETA: I don't know about the specifics of the mars rock thing, but it wouldn't be the first time the US has gone after space rocks like this. The US has tried to get moon rocks out of private hands in the past. Not sure what happened with those cases. That being said, it's the Trump administration, so it's also possible this is entirely stupider ground that past versions.

 

[dann]

... I've run across a few atheists who deny that and complain about the use of "the Bible of ....." in any context other than the Christian Bible, which is rather silly. ...

Like I said, "you can call it the Marxist Bible if you want to. It makes as much or as little sense as calling On the Origin of Species the Evolutionist Bible."
That atheists in particular "complain about the use of "the Bible of ....." in any context other than the Christian Bible" may have something to do with Christians classifying atheism as a religion.

The Communist Manifesto was a kind of 'founding document' of a movement. There have been others, e.g. the Gotha Program.
Marx's Critique of the Gotha Programme comes closer to a founding document of Marxism, written as it is after Marx had published the first volume of Das Kapital:

The work is celebrated among Marxists for being one of Marx's most detailed pronouncements on programmatic matters. It offers his most extensive statements on the nature of a hypothetical future communist society, the strategy for achieving it, and the principles that would govern it.

That it was "one of Marx's most detailed pronouncements on programmatic matters" doesn't say much. He was (pre)occupied with the society that had to be defeated to make way for communism. His critique of the Gotha Programme was that it was an obstacle to that struggle; it wasn't scientific socialism.
Revisionists tend to dislike the Critique of the Gotha Programme.

Utopia and Marxism (RuthlessCriticism)
Marx and Engels contrasted utopian socialism to scientific socialism. Why can’t scientifically justified teachings be nevertheless utopian in its goals?
Common sense has in fact somewhat understood that utopia does not quite agree with knowledge. It loves to measure criticism by whether it offers “feasible” alternatives, and in debate it regards it as a clever and irrefutable argument if it makes the accusation of a utopian position. With the keyword “utopia” nothing less is characterized than the error of wanting to do things that are not at all possible; to be preoccupied with necessities that cannot be changed, so that, conversely, one has to take consideration of them.
When the accusation “utopian” is expressed, the argument always relies on unalterable necessities that cannot be abolished, like laws of nature.

That sounds as if you would nevertheless break a lance for utopia!
No, our criticism of this term is different. Science is set against pious hopes and dreams of a better world, starting with knowledge. Knowledge concerns iron necessities that disgrace mere intentions. Therefore it is always worthwhile to examine the upheld knowledge for its soundness. And therefore it is basically upside down to withdraw into “fantasy” and to display more or less proudly a talent for utopian thinking; this art of imagining most things or even everything as being different is namely concerned with what is so far not at all here.
The practice of theoretically undoing everything, or at least making it half as bad, has been in fashion for centuries in art and religion – and as edifying background music it is always appreciated and enjoyed by the shapers of reality. The commitment inherent in all utopias, to overcome with the imagination the burdens of the respectively practiced business, to therefore exist in the subjunctive where nobody has ever been, makes its pleasures so enjoyable.
Where such a commitment wants to set programs, it is not declared unsuitable for the comfortable, just that with “realism” what inspires the mind does not yet count for economic and political interests.

 

[ahhell]

To be clear, I do not disagree with you on this matter Dann. What might or might be considered the Bible of Communism is up to communists not me.

I just have this pet peeve about things being called the "Bible of..." its a thing outside of religion is all, I am moderately annoyed by folks who act like it not. I don't think that's what you are saying, you seem to just be saying that neither Capitialism nor the Communist Manifesto are fairly called the Bible of Communism. I'm fine with that. I can see why some might and see why some might not, not up to me. I also realize this is a bit of an idiosyncratic thing of mine, I mean, how often does it come up?

Side note, would it be fair to call the Little Red Book, the bible of Maoism? Is Mien Kampf the Bible of Nazism? Which Ayn Rand book is the Bible of objectism? Or is it all of them but sort of an old and new testament of Objectism?

 

[theprestige]

I think it's pretty obvious that people don't need to worship a theos in order to establish a religion. Marxism, Leninism, Maoism, et al. certainly exhibit many of the negatives and failure modes of religion: Dogma, heresy, inquisition, autos-da-fe... It's all there. Dann is laboring under not one but two delusions: One, that "the bible of..." cannot be used as a descriptive figure of speech, for things that are not literally foundational texts of a theistic belief system. The other, that communism cannot be functionally religious in expression, without a theos to worship.

 

[ahhell]

I think it's pretty obvious that people don't need to worship a theos in order to establish a religion. Marxism, Leninism, Maoism, et al. certainly exhibit many of the negatives and failure modes of religion: Dogma, heresy, inquisition, autos-da-fe... It's all there. Dann is laboring under not one but two delusions: One, that "the bible of..." cannot be used as a descriptive figure of speech, for things that are not literally foundational texts of a theistic belief system. The other, that communism cannot be functionally religious in expression, without a theos to worship.

Fair point, for some odd reason, Maoism seems especially prone to religious like belief, there are at lest two former cults that started as Maoist political parties.

I don't think this is unusual. I think both major American political parties have religious like qualities. That is, some folks have stayed loyal to the parties despite the obvious shift in....doctrine? over the last 100 years or so. Just look at all the boomers and war generation folks stayed in the parties as they the parties' switched places on being the party of southern racists. Some racists and race progressive did switch but some racist stopped being racist mostly because their party stopped.