Split Thread What is Communism

[ahhell]

Is not being able to afford enough food only bad if you die from it? And is it a good idea to decide what you can buy with your food stamps, when it is difficult for many people to find/prepare nutritious food?

If folks were actually staring in the US anymore, you might have a point. I understand there are no true communists but we can compare and contrast starvation rates in nominally capitalist nations with nominally communist nations if you wish.

ETA: Often ignored famine under Marxists, Ethiopia in the 80s. Totally unrelated to communism though.

 

[theprestige]

What's the difference between mercantilism and capitalism when there is no State Control to prevent excesses?
Corporate Towns are proof that on its own, Capitalism leads to brutal exploitation of workers.

A lot of people make the mistake of comparing capitalism, an economic system, with communism, an economic and political system.

Given the choice, most people choose some form of capitalism: private property, private sales, market prices, profit margins, etc. The Soviet Union had a thriving black market.

So it's no surprise that combining some form of democratic self rule with basic principles of private property and free trade, works out way better than dictatorships nominally based on collective ownership and central planning.

 

[Ziggurat]

What's the difference between mercantilism and capitalism when there is no State Control to prevent excesses?

What the actual ◊◊◊◊ are you even talking about?

Mercantilism cannot exist absent state control. State control is the whole bloody point of mercantilism.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

I'm saying communism is what communists do. The fact that they don't actually do what they say they will do doesn't make it not communism, it just makes communists liars. Which isn't a point in favor of communism.

Why do you keep falling for the "no true communist" fallacy?

So we can look at North Korea and surmise that democracy is when you have a single party and the leader is worshiped like a god?

If you see someone who claims to be vegetarian indulge in meat, do you redefine vegetarianism or do you decide that person isn't a vegetarian? What if someone online claims to be black but then when you meet them in real-life they're a white dude? Are white people suddenly black now?

Again, your reasoning is incredibly weird. Not to mention reaching.

 

[plague311]

If folks were actually staring in the US anymore, you might have a point.

They are starving, I just ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ linked to it and provided a screenshot. You can say you don't believe, or you can ignore it like Zigg did, because it's inconvenient for whatever point you're attempting to make, but it happens.

Thank you for admitting Helen has a point though. That's big of you.

I understand there are no true communists but we can compare and contrast starvation rates in nominally capitalist nations with nominally communist nations if you wish.

What the ◊◊◊◊? Where did Helen bring up communists?

If your argument is "more people die from starvation in Communist countries than die from starvation in capitalist countries" then...cool flex, bro. I'm sure that makes the people starving to death in capitalist countries feel so, so much better.

Perhaps, if you get time, you can find a few people starving to death and tell them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. That's a good one.

ETA: Often ignored famine under Marxists, Ethiopia in the 80s. Totally unrelated to communism though.

Is ◊◊◊◊ that happened 40 years ago relevant to what's happening today? Is it relevant to people starving to death in the US? Can you show me on the doll where communism hurt you? lol.

 

[Ziggurat]

If you see someone who claims to be vegetarian indulge in meat, do you redefine vegetarianism or do you decide that person isn't a vegetarian?

If ALL self-declared vegetarians ate meat, then yeah, I would redefine vegetarianism.

What if someone online claims to be black but then when you meet them in real-life they're a white dude? Are white people suddenly black now?

This is a particularly stupid comparison, since we don't accept race as a belief system.

You should have tried gender.

 

[ahhell]

They are starving, I just ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ linked to it and provided a screenshot. You can say you don't believe, or you can ignore it like Zigg did, because it's inconvenient for whatever point you're attempting to make, but it happens.

Thank you for admitting Helen has a point though. That's big of you.


What the ◊◊◊◊? Where did Helen bring up communists?

If your argument is "more people die from starvation in Communist countries than die from starvation in capitalist countries" then...cool flex, bro. I'm sure that makes the people starving to death in capitalist countries feel so, so much better.

Perhaps, if you get time, you can find a few people starving to death and tell them to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. That's a good one.


Is ◊◊◊◊ that happened 40 years ago relevant to what's happening today? Is it relevant to people starving to death in the US? Can you show me on the doll where communism hurt you? lol.

Sorry, I thought this was a thread about what communism is. My bad for misunderstanding.

Nobody is starving to death in the US, by nobody I mean practically nobody. I'm sure you can find that one person that drank nothing but diet coke and ate nothing but Doritos who also starved to death, you can find someone who died of a drug overdose and was also had a vitamin deficiency.

 

[ahhell]

Looks like at least some people die from starvation and malnutrition
View attachment 71207

A screen shot devoid of context, not a link. There is a reason we talk about food insecurity and not malnutrition.

It effects people 85 and older more? The richest Americans are most at risk of starving? These deaths mostly occur in homes and medical care facilities? Let that sink in, apparently one of the most common places to die of malnutrition related causes, residential homes, hospices and medical or nursing facilities? Really?

 

[Ziggurat]

It effects people 85 and older more? The richest Americans are most at risk of starving? These deaths mostly occur in homes and medical care facilities? Let that sink in, apparently one of the most common places to die of malnutrition related causes, residential homes, hospices and medical or nursing facilities? Really?

Yes. Because they have dementia, and don't eat enough, and the staff doesn't force them because that's difficult to do.

It's a genuine problem, but not one caused by a lack of available food.

 

[ahhell]

Sweet. I've never seen someone try to pivot a conversation so fast before in my life. Notice how it doesn't say "only" when it refers to the "most vulnerable"? That's because it happens to plenty of others as well, of all ages. Those are just the people that are "most vulnerable".

I know you knew that, you know you knew that, so why bother with this dumb ◊◊◊◊? Why bother trying to fleece people here? When you do this it just looks so ridiculous. First you strawman TZG's point and then you say nonsense like this. I just can't understand why. Do you think people here are dumb enough to not see what you're doing? We're not all Trump supporters here. You can't gaslight the whole forum and then when you're called out throw a red herring and trot off while calling everyone else stupid because they don't see ◊◊◊◊ your way.

The only gaslighting is folks trying to claim that "food insecurity" = "starving" and folks dying of "malnutrition related causes" are starving. Its clear the link you posted a screen shot of, was doing exactly that. Claiming that demented people unwilling to eat is a lack of access to food.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

You can call that capitalism I guess but makes the term fairly useless.

Making words fairly useless has been the unifying theme of this thread.

 

[plague311]

A screen shot devoid of context, not a link.

Devoid of context? It says it in the ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ first sentence what the context is in its entirety lol. Can you not read? How can I help you with this?

Also, the source as in the image. If you can't find it that's a you problem, not a me problem.

There is a reason we talk about food insecurity and not malnutrition.

I'm sure there is but the image I showed said that starvation deaths are commonly listed as "malnutrition". Also, don't include me in your "we", I genuinely have no idea what you're talking about.

It effects people 85 and older more?

Jesus mother ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ Christ, yes they are THE MOST VULNERABLE. They are not THE ONLY ONES EFFECTED. That's why, again, the source specifically says it happens to the most vulnerable 60 times the rate as the rest of the population. The rest of us are the people under 85, just in case you needed more help. Which is obviously the case.

The richest Americans are most at risk of starving?

Huh? What the hell are you talking about?

These deaths mostly occur in homes and medical care facilities? Let that sink in, apparently one of the most common places to die of malnutrition related causes, residential homes, hospices and medical or nursing facilities? Really?

Yeah, I don't find that at all shocking. I didn't find it at all shocking when Zigg told us some weird ass anecdote either. That is where it "mostly" occurs. Guess where else it occurs? Not ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ there. As in, everywhere else. How you two are having such a problem with this is beyond me.

 

[plague311]

The only gaslighting is folks trying to claim that "food insecurity" = "starving" and folks dying of "malnutrition related causes" are starving. Its clear the link you posted a screen shot of, was doing exactly that. Claiming that demented people unwilling to eat is a lack of access to food.

No, it wasn't. It was saying that is the most common, not the only. If there is some way I can help you understand this easier, since both you and Zigg seem to be completely ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ mystified, I'd love to help. Teaching people is a passion of mine.

 

[Helen]

Is not being able to afford enough food only bad if you die from it? And is it a good idea to decide what you can buy with your food stamps, when it is difficult for many people to find/prepare nutritious food?

If folks were actually staring in the US anymore, you might have a point. I understand there are no true communists but we can compare and contrast starvation rates in nominally capitalist nations with nominally communist nations if you wish.

ETA: Often ignored famine under Marxists, Ethiopia in the 80s. Totally unrelated to communism though.

I did not mention starvation, there are actually a few stops between "able to afford enough almas caviar to fill an olympic sized pool" and "dying from starvation". Not having enough food for your family may not mean imminent death, but it brings a load of other problems with it. Being malnourished brings with it a host of mental and physical risks and illnesses. And the extreme anxiety of not knowing if youcan put food in thr mouths of your kids is disabling in and of itself.

It's also incredibly harmful to the rest of society - we are all better off if children grow up healthy, able to benefit from going to school, possibly even higher education, and then get a job.

And just to clarify, yet again, I'm not a communist, not even close. I do care about people, however, I think perhaps that is what's confusing you.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

If ALL self-declared vegetarians ate meat, then yeah, I would redefine vegetarianism.

Do all self-declared communists want a China-style dictatorship instead of communism?

No? Far from it? Okay, then.

 

[Darat]

I did not mention starvation, there are actually a few stops between "able to afford enough almas caviar to fill an olympic sized pool" and "dying from starvation". Not having enough food for your family may not mean imminent death, but it brings a load of other problems with it.
Being malnourished brings with it a host of mental and physical risks and illnesses. And the extreme anxiety of not knowing if youcan put food in thr mouths of your kids is disabling in and of itself.
It's also incredibly harmful to the rest of society - we are all better off if children grow up healthy, able to benefit from going to school, possibly even higher education, and then get a job.

And just to clarify, yet again, I'm not a communist, not even close. I do care about people, however, I think perhaps that is what's confusing you.

And via intergenerational epigenetic inheritance that is probably going to have multigenerational changes that can affect 2 further generations, so damage can persist long after a stressor has been alleviated.

 

[theprestige]

Do all self-declared communists want a China-style dictatorship instead of communism? No? Far from it? Okay, then.

All revolutionary communists - that is, all real world communists - want a dictatorship.

What I don't understand is why so many non-communists are so invested in defending Communism's honor.

You know Marx's ideal communism will never emerge. History tells you how revolutionary communism works out whenever it is tried. There's no need for you to white-knight for an obviously bankrupt ideology.

Unless you identify as a communist. Do you identify as a communist? No? Far from it? Okay, then.

 

[Ziggurat]

Do all self-declared communists want a China-style dictatorship instead of communism?

No? Far from it? Okay, then.

All self-declared communists institute dictatorships. They aren't all Chinese-style dictatorships, sure, but that was never my claim. The difference between Mao and Stalin isn't really relevant here.

 

[Ziggurat]

What I don't understand is why so many non-communists are so invested in defending Communism's honor.

Because they're invested in defending government control, and communism makes that look bad.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

All revolutionary communists - that is, all real world communists - want a dictatorship.

Nope. Communism is a classless, moneyless, and stateless society. Hard to have a dictatorship-anarchy.

What I don't understand is why so many non-communists are so invested in defending Communism's honor.

Oh look, a bundle of straw.

You know Marx's ideal communism will never emerge.

This seems to be a rather big contradiction. The people in charge of the USSR, etc. were communists, but communism will never emerge? It's as if you know communism and the 'communist' regimes in reality are two different things and are just being a pizza cutter.

There's no need for you to white-knight for an obviously bankrupt ideology.

I haven't said a single positive thing about communism all thread.