Split Thread What is Communism

[plague311]

Most of the deaths of Native Americans was due to smallpox. That was essentially inevitable once contact was made, it wasn't some deliberate decision. And the fact that communism is bad doesn't mean nothing else is bad, nor does other things being bad somehow excuse communism. That's just stupid.

It just seems weird that the first thing you did was excuse the colonists.

I'm kidding, it's not weird at all. Everyone could see that coming from you.

 

[Ziggurat]

It just seems weird that the first thing you did was excuse the colonists.

It just seems weird that the first thing you did was excuse Mao.

I'm kidding, it's not weird at all. Everyone could see that coming from you.

 

[ahhell]

Ok, so there never has been a truly communist state, I actually believe that. The thing that modern communists will need to explain, is how come ever state that has claimed to be communist seems to end up as a brutal dictatorship instead of a communist state?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Ok, so there never has been a truly communist state, I actually believe that. The thing that modern communists will need to explain, is how come ever state that has claimed to be communist seems to end up as a brutal dictatorship instead of a communist state?

what about Kerala in India ?

 

[plague311]

It just seems weird that the first thing you did was excuse Mao.

Where did I do that? Can you quote the part where I did that? Is it in the room with us right now?

I'm kidding, it's not weird at all. Everyone could see that coming from you.

It never happened, but you do have difficulty with your powers of observation.

 

[ahhell]

what about Kerala in India ?

I sit corrected, there was one, actually two, San Marino was also run by some commies for a bit. Got to love San Marino, they kept their independence because they helped Garibaldi out when he was uniting the rest of Italy. Seems ironic, like rain on your wedding day.

 

[Ziggurat]

Where did I do that? Can you quote the part where I did that?

Sure:

I'm not denying a connection between communism and bloodshed. I'm denying there's more than there has been under the guise of things like capitalism....or even democracy in general. Lots of bloodshed over the centuries when it comes to all forms of government or economy.

This is more of a defense of Mao as my post was a defense of colonists.

And if you think this wasn't much of a defense of Mao, congratulations, now connect the dots.

 

[Ziggurat]

what about Kerala in India ?

Kerala is a state within India, it is not a nation state. It is a parliamentary democracy, one in which the Communist Party is one of the parties. They are part of a coalition that has been in power, but as far as I can tell the communist party never had an outright majority, and again, they're only part of India. The Kerala government is subservient to the national government. Which means they've never really been in a position to exert complete governmental power.

 

[theprestige]

Where did I do that? Can you quote the part where I did that? Is it in the room with us right now?


It never happened, but you do have difficulty with your powers of observation.

It was TGZ that excused Mao first thing, in that latest exchange. Your only sin was passing right over that nonsense without comment, to pile on against the anti-Mao position. Which is also not at all weird. Lots of people like to pay lip service to the idea that communism is bad, or Mao Zedong was a bad leader. But they never stop to chide or correct people who defend communism or make excuses for Mao. They always skip right over those "errors" (which they obviously don't consider errors), to go after the people they supposedly agree with, about communism being bad, and Mao being bad.

As for all this "what about" tu quoque nonsense, I will say this: Still better than communism.

 

[Darat]

No true communism. Nobody ever did it right. Next time will be different.

That's bull ◊◊◊◊.

That is what all communists actually do in practice when able to. China isn't a one-off.

As was posted above - communism requires there to be no state (also no money and no classes). Are you really saying that there was no state in the USSR/Russia and there isn't in China today? They were and are dictatorships.

As I said you are falling for the state propaganda of Russia and China.

 

[Darat]

Ok, so there never has been a truly communist state, I actually believe that. The thing that modern communists will need to explain, is how come ever state that has claimed to be communist
seems to end up as a brutal dictatorship instead of a communist state?

I'm not an old nor modern communist but that is very easy to answer: because it's an ideology and like all ideologies it doesn't accurately model reality.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

how come ever state that has claimed to be communist seems to end up as a brutal dictatorship instead of a communist state?

No clue, nor does it have anything to do with whether China et al are communist.

Communism is what communists do.

Communists, as opposed to people claiming to be communists?

The pretense that it is otherwise is rank apologism.

So democracy is when you have one party and the leader is worshiped like a god, like in North Korea?

By the way, clutching straws are 50% off, today only.

 

[Ziggurat]

As was posted above - communism requires there to be no state (also no money and no classes). Are you really saying that there was no state in the USSR/Russia and there isn't in China today? They were and are dictatorships.

As I said you are falling for the state propaganda of Russia and China.

I'm saying communism is what communists do. The fact that they don't actually do what they say they will do doesn't make it not communism, it just makes communists liars. Which isn't a point in favor of communism.

Why do you keep falling for the "no true communist" fallacy?

 

[plague311]

Sure:

This is more of a defense of Mao as my post was a defense of colonists.

And if you think this wasn't much of a defense of Mao, congratulations, now connect the dots.

You could have just said, "No, I can't show where you did that because you didn't" rather than just making some ◊◊◊◊ up and telling me to "connect the dots".

I had a lot of things pegged for this you but you using conspiracy theory speak wasn't on the list. Good for you for knowing no limits.

 

[Ziggurat]

You could have just said, "No, I can't show where you did that because you didn't" rather than just making some ◊◊◊◊ up and telling me to "connect the dots".

Since you're bad at this, I'll connect them for you:
I didn't defend colonists. That's the dot I wanted you to connect: you didn't actually defend Mao, and I didn't actually defend colonists. And you couldn't manage it. There's no conspiracy involved, just your weak-ass logic failing.

 

[Steve]

Some things don't change. McCarthyism has remained as a philosophy for right wing Americans through 70ish years. It encompasses an easy target that no follower ever has to actually understand.

 

[theprestige]

As was posted above - communism requires there to be no state (also no money and no classes). Are you really saying that there was no state in the USSR/Russia and there isn't in China today? They were and are dictatorships.

I think it's more nuanced, and more pernicious than that.

In the Marxist ideal, communism is the apotheosis of human society. It is to emerge naturally and inevitably from the conditions of the age, culminating in a global fellowship that is state-less, money-less, and class-less.

Leninism seeks to improve on Marx's "wait for the inevitable" eschatology. Why wait, when you can engineer the emergence of communism, by brute force if you have to?

It should be obvious by now that Ideal Communism was never going to happen. Marx was even a worse prophet than he was a contributing member of society. I'd argue that his greatest contribution to society was inspiring Lenin et al. to try to get to the Promised Land by force.

And that's the communism we talk about today. Not Marx's utopian dream, but Lenin's totalitarian program and all its ilk. When someone says they're a communist, we don't take them to mean they're a naive dreamer who still believes in the eventual emergence of the worker's paradise from the corpse of industrialism. We take them to mean they're a naive sociopath, who still believes that the dictatorship of the proletariat can be imposed by pitiless revolutionaries for the greater good - no matter how many reactionaries you have to kill along the way.

 

[plague311]

Since you're bad at this, I'll connect them for you:
I didn't defend colonists. That's the dot I wanted you to connect: you didn't actually defend Mao, and I didn't actually defend colonists. And you couldn't manage it. There's no conspiracy involved, just your weak-ass logic failing.

pfffhaha you're comparing apples to oranges and I'm the one failing?

You literally ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ made an excuse, "Well it was inevitable, nothing else could be done." I didn't say nothing could have been done, I acknowledged it. I contested the degree to which it happened and the events that caused it.

Jesus Christ dood. You've now own-goaled 3 times in as many pages. Just stop. It's tough to watch.

 

[Ziggurat]

You literally ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ made an excuse, "Well it was inevitable, nothing else could be done."

What do you think could have been done to prevent smallpox from ravaging native American populations? I'm quite curious. This out to be interesting.

 

[plague311]

What do you think could have been done to prevent smallpox from ravaging native American populations? I'm quite curious. This out to be interesting.

How was it prevented up to that point? They could have just kept doing that, right?