What is an ethical diet?

[Jyera]

about ignorance with internet connection

No problem with not being aware of the issues, but as someone with an internet connection it's a simple matter to do some research on the subject.
...
Again, ignorance is no excuse - not when you have the internet at your disposal:
[/B]

Many people with internet connection is only knowledgable about porn and ignorant about many other things.

I have many interests and need. I can only spent some time doing my own research on some topic. After the while the margin of return on the info vs the effort of search diminish and it is time to take a decision and get on with life and my other interest.

I think I'm above average on using the search engines, and enjoy doing so.

But I have enjoyed just as much to be surrounded by people like those in this forum who give me the info and links instead of me finding it. I do show other people useful links as well.

I have learned more than info from Internet interaction.
I now know who has the same view as me and who has alternative perspective. I can affirm my rationalisation as well as improving it. I now also learn from their mental reasoning and philosophy which I could adopt.

I like to learn from others' philosophy.
And is keen to help others with similar challenge as me.

 

[Jyera]

...
I'm confused - how can you make a 'rational decision' either way if you're admittedly 'poorly educated' on the subject? As far as I can see, you are only equipped to make a gut reaction at present...

Rational decision need not be the Truth.
ALL of the time we make decision without PERFECT and COMPLETE information and fact.

"poorly educated" is relative.
And I have realised that there are people who are much more in a position to confidently cite info than me.
Especially on an Evidence-based community such as JREF forum.
Perhaps it should have been "poorly researched".

Then again, I have been having no major problem what to eat.

.
The problem is people making gut reactions to GM foods without knowing the facts and pushing this viewpoint onto others. There are plenty of people in Greenpeace who've made a similar snap decision on GM foods to the one you've made. They just happen to go around trying to convince others too.

The people taking the action need to be commended for their loyalty and courage to attempt to change and influence the world. The leaders of these people need to be respected for their leadership to move things and people. I just hope that they make the right decision and view.

But just my view of all human organisation. They often get follower to do things that is only beneficial to the survival organisation. It is not gut reaction but one with motive.

 

[SpaceFluffer]

Rational decision need not be the Truth.
ALL of the time we make decision without PERFECT and COMPLETE information and fact.

Of course - we can never know all the facts. Does that mean we should make conclusions without having any facts? Of course not.

The people taking the action need to be commended for their loyalty and courage to attempt to change and influence the world. The leaders of these people need to be respected for their leadership to move things and people. I just hope that they make the right decision and view.

I can't tell you how angry that makes me. You're honestly saying that people who issue propaganda to governments based on how they think the world is (with no facts to back up their position), rather than how is actually is, should be commended?

The problem is the Zambian government didn't 'make the right decision'. They made an incorrect decision based on horror stories they were given. And who-knows-how-many thousands died needlessly because of it.

Reality is not based on people's opinions!

 

[farmermike]

Space fluffer hit the nail on the head.That's what critical thinking is all about

 

[Jyera]

Of course - we can never know all the facts. Does that mean we should make conclusions without having any facts? Of course not....

I think we are in agreement that decision need to be based on fact. But perfect knowledge of all facts are not all the time possible.

So while my decision on what to eat and what not to eat may not be as sophisticated or factual as others, I do have personal right to decide what I'll eat.
Ie. my decision to be careful about GM food. (I'll still reserve the right eat them occasionally)

The context of the above was on my eating habits.
Please do not mix this with the Zambian Government case.

Thanks.

See my next post ...

 

[Jyera]

...
I can't tell you how angry that makes me. You're honestly saying that people who issue propaganda to governments based on how they think the world is (with no facts to back up their position), rather than how is actually is, should be commended?

No. They shouldn't be commended for their work that lead to starvation.
But propaganda do happen. Exploiting and misguiding the loyal and brave do happen.

I think they should be made aware how many people they might have starved to death.

I figured they have been commended for taking action bravely and loyally by their leaders. Many brave and loyal people are fools/mislead. I hope they wakeup.

Originally posted by SpaceFluffer The problem is the Zambian government didn't 'make the right decision'. They made an incorrect decision based on horror stories they were given. And who-knows-how-many thousands died needlessly because of it.[/B]

I would agree they made incorrect decision. Because I think they caused rather immediate death due to starvation.
So who is at fault? How about the armchair skeptic or critic?
For not taking an as aggressive action as Greenpeace, to convince the Zambain government so that people do not starve?

Reality is not based on people's opinions! [/B]

This is very very true.
Reality is not based on opinion. It is based on action. And these people at greenpeace takes action. Both physical action as well as influnencing action.
But alas, many good (but foolish/misguided ) souls has become pawns for the wrong cause.

We need to respect their (the green peace leaders) power to move people.

What's worse than...
"Fools and their money are soon parted."?
Answer.
"Fools and their mind and free will are soon parted."

 

[Jyera]

Consider the following info about GM/GE food.

http://www.safe-food.org/-issue/dangers.html

http://www.safe-food.org/-issue/claims.html

Any comment about what they said?
Is there any thing wrong about their arguments?

I'm NOT using these info to help justify the action of Greenpeace nor the decision of Zambian Gov.

But...
If the Green Peace activists or the Zambian Gov official cited these points as support for their decision and or action.
How would you respond?

 

[farmermike]

Consider the following info about GM/GE food.

http://www.safe-food.org/-issue/dangers.html

http://www.safe-food.org/-issue/claims.html

Any comment about what they said?
Is there any thing wrong about their arguments?

I'm NOT using these info to help justify the action of Greenpeace nor the decision of Zambian Gov.

But...
If the Green Peace activists or the Zambian Gov official cited these points as support for their decision and or action.
How would you respond?

In regard to the sites and their bias,offering no solutions while raising fear through questionable facts could be considered unethical in itself.AS a farmer,the benefits of the GM crop must outweigh the added cost of seed in order for me to purchase it. Roundup ready corn and beens need only one pass with herbicide instead of multi passes or tank mixes. In poorer countries why would they consider planting GM seed if they are getting sufficient yields with the open pollinated varieties they use now?As an example,with their current seeds they might have a 50% chance of getting a fair yield and 20%good and30% poor.A GM variety might get 70% fair 25% good and 5% poor. Of course there are a lot more variables than the seeds in getting a crop.It's only my two cents worth.

 

[voidx]

A friend worked briefly in a chicken farm. He related his witness of the selection of the male chicks. Since they are keeping only the females, the males chicks are crushed.
He found it so disgusting he stopped eating chicken for a while.

Check this out.

http://www.factoryfarming.org/eggs.htm .
As I understand. . Since the chicks are also bred for eggs laying. So they do not grow up bigger as compared to other breeds of chicken bred for meat. As such the male chick are of little value.
The male chick are killed/ crushed by a machine. The machine were apparently not efficient in minimising the pain.

Again a lack of detail. Crushing machines and wood chippers used to dispose of chickens. Well lets look at the situation. Google for Ward Egg Ranch and you'll get plenty of information. This case took place in the midst of california's crisis with exotic Newcastle disease, which precipitated the destruction of a large percentage of that states poultry. In this case the Ward Egg Ranch was was not allowed to ship the chickens to its other ranch, or to its alternate option of sending them to the local slaughter house to be used for meat because of bans on shipping chickens due to exotic Newcastle disease. They consulted a veterinarian on how to dispose of the birds. Now there is a lot of denial and confusion about what happened next but essentially the farm claims the veterinarian told them a wood chipper was a humane way of disposing of the animals. This in contrast to industry statements that wood chippers or not a standard piece of equipment used to dispose of chickens, and the California farm and agriculture's statement that their preferred method of euthanizing is by CO2. So yet again, an isolate incident that occurred due to extreme conditions. No in depth data that its a regular industry practice.

 

[jimmygun]

Lets say there are x number of cows in the world. If no one ate any of them then in y number of years they would all be dead anyway. The only way to cut down on the suffering of animals is to reduce the number of animals. Vegans would deny those cows the chance for a calm, fear free, disease free, hunger free,and predator free life. They would deny the cow or steer the existance which is probably a lot better than most of the world around us, certainly the animals in the wild.

If I were a cow I would want my children to grow up in such a world, even if it meant taking a bolt in the head and ending up on someone's plate. (see Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy)

In a more serious vein, what makes a meal moral is the person eating it and claiming the moral highground.

 

[epepke]

Vegans would deny those cows the chance for a calm, fear free, disease free, hunger free,and predator free life. They would deny the cow or steer the existance which is probably a lot better than most of the world around us, certainly the animals in the wild.

While there may be an element of je ne sais quois in this, I've talked to vegans and have gotten a response that this is exactly what they want. No more baby cows.