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What if your life (seems) to go better with prayer?

"Prayer is just a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms" - Terry Pratchett

But that doesn't mean some people don't find it helpful.
 
HansMustermann said:
Well, my point is basically this: if you already have friends you can talk to, exactly what else does a therapist bring to the table, other than charge you for letting you talk to him? Psychoanalysis doesn't actually work, and any other problem he's probably not any more qualified to help you with than your friends or for that matter than talking to wall.
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Perhaps. I happen to think I did get benefit from one particular counselor, who was a trained listener, not someone who would barge in with advice, but who would probe a litter deeper into why something in particular bothered me. She was also a good deal - my group cost $15 a week. The group dynamics were also interesting to observe. She wasn't a Freudian. She dealt with a lot of substance abuse and PTSD. She knew when to probe, and also when to leave things alone, depending on the client's needs. I wish I had someone like that now, but I'm not very good at taking care of myself. I do know that when I see a psychiatrist or nurse practitioner, I'm eager to share with them some recent progress (if any). I think you are painting with a very wide brush. Was there any experience that contributed to your belief? Because I'm quite willing to accept that there are people out there who should sure as **** not be in the business of probing people's psyches and/or giving people bad advice.
 
Pixel42 said:
"Prayer is just a sophisticated way of pleading with thunderstorms" - Terry Pratchett

But that doesn't mean some people don't find it helpful.
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Oh, man, I wish I had a thunderstorm to plead with. I live in the desert and we are overdue for our "monsoon" rains, which last year fizzled out almost entirely. So far summer has been a disappointment.

I haven't prayed about it. I don't think it works that way. But people in the desert praying for rain might be the oldest prayer in the world. Weather modelers have become very good and if they say it's going to be dry and 112 out I tend to believe them, despite the cumulonimbus clouds luring on the horizon.
 
If people are praying over this pandemic, I'd really rather they actually do something. Volunteering, donating, checking up on friends and relatives. Stuff.
 
arthwollipot said:
What makes you think many of them aren't doing both?
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I am definitely against using prayer as a substitute for effective action. I don't think God has a plan and if a kid gets cancer I don't want people praying over her as a substitute for chemo, radiation, etc. People who rely on prayer vs. medical attention are seriously misguided.

It's a potential tool for living with horrible situations. It's not for everyone and I wouldn't suggest it to people who are fighting their way out of religious indoctrination.

I only did it because I was out of other options.
 
arthwollipot said:
"Some"? Certainly. But I don't think it's fair to generalise from that. Many - most? - Christians do charity and pray.
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This is my experience with friends and family; you asked what made me think that, and I told you. I also was a christian, a catholic in fact, considering the seminary at one time. I've seen christian charity, and what some claimed to be christian charity. So yeah, "some" in my experience.
 
arthwollipot said:
"Some"? Certainly. But I don't think it's fair to generalise from that. Many - most? - Christians do charity and pray.
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Well, *SOME* Christians (or for that matter Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc). From my experience, though, "I'll pray for you" / "I prayed for you" is most often a substitute for actually doing something. In the best case, it might be only partially, and they'll also do some token thing too, but too often it's just a way to feel like they totally did their part, when they didn't.
 
Minoosh said:
Perhaps. I happen to think I did get benefit from one particular counselor, who was a trained listener, not someone who would barge in with advice, but who would probe a litter deeper into why something in particular bothered me. She was also a good deal - my group cost $15 a week. The group dynamics were also interesting to observe. She wasn't a Freudian. She dealt with a lot of substance abuse and PTSD. She knew when to probe, and also when to leave things alone, depending on the client's needs. I wish I had someone like that now, but I'm not very good at taking care of myself. I do know that when I see a psychiatrist or nurse practitioner, I'm eager to share with them some recent progress (if any). I think you are painting with a very wide brush. Was there any experience that contributed to your belief? Because I'm quite willing to accept that there are people out there who should sure as **** not be in the business of probing people's psyches and/or giving people bad advice.
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No, not really. It's just the fact that medically, speaking as in studies about results, it doesn't really do anything long term, if you actually had a problem to solve other than needing someone to talk to (and your friends didn't fit the bill for some reason.)

Group things are a different thing, but mostly because you're getting yourself into some group pressure to do something. (Like, for example to quit substance abuse.)
 
Well, one of the things *I* learned early, and I didn't even need a therapist for that is this: if one person tells you that you're drunk, and you know you're not, then he's probably wrong. If two tell you you're drunk, better go get some sleep, just in case they're right.

Why I'm saying that is because of this: if _all_ your friends 'barge in with advice' when you tell them about your problem, then maybe they do have a point, and you COULD do something to improve your situation. Maybe you really are in some kind of situation/rut/whatever that is bad for you, and that you could get out of.

And maybe you need antidepressants for that, by the sound of it. Because ultimately that's the common denominator for depression: not having the motivation to do, including getting out of situations that are bad for you, based on some expectation that things can't get better, can't get solved, or there's no actual way out, or stuff to that effect. And that's what antidepressants DO. They're not some happy pills, they're there to up your motivation and your baseline expectations of success a notch, so you can go do whatever needs to be done to sort your life out.

Sure, some stranger who is paid to sit there and nod while you rationalize why you shouldn't do what your friends tell you to, feels good in the short run. But in the long run it may well prevent you from going and getting some medication that would allow you to ACTUALLY solve the root problem.
 
Defecating on therapy and prayer/meditation, wow. Hot take.

Therapy is often useful when people want to talk about things they can't talk about with friends. Who wants to talk to friends about their weird, violent, bizarre intrusive thoughts? Maybe some people, but I sure wouldn't. Therapists don't shock as easily as regular people, too. They've heard most of it before. They know intrusive thoughts can be normal, people just don't tend to talk about them. Most therapists won't be scandalized if you tell them you're struggling with attraction to someone who isn't your partner. They won't act like you're sick if you have a fetish. This stuff seems like "duh" material to me.

Maybe some people are fortunate enough to have friends and family who are just perfectly open-minded, and it's never weird to talk to them, but it can't be that common.

Some of you guys are absolute dicks when religion is brought up in any form, no matter how vague. It's so irritating. It's one of the worst things about this place. It's a pretty long jump from "I talk to the universe to feel better" to "God told me we have to ban gay marriage," but skeptics don't seem to recognize that nuance.

I'm sorry this post is a little mean, but this thread pissed me off. I can't stand this level of rigidity in thinking, and furthermore, suggesting that no one ever anywhere can truly benefit from therapy, because they could just talk to their friends, is delusional.

I'm going to go talk to the universe myself, now, because it's soothing and helpful to me, and I don't need any other reason. La-dee-da to all of you who are too stable and rational to even consider such tactics. Good for you.
 
HansMustermann said:
Well, *SOME* Christians (or for that matter Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc). From my experience, though, "I'll pray for you" / "I prayed for you" is most often a substitute for actually doing something. In the best case, it might be only partially, and they'll also do some token thing too, but too often it's just a way to feel like they totally did their part, when they didn't.
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I hope I don't use it that way; in fact I'm very reluctant to say that to anyone because I'm not a big fan of intercessory prayer. I would also be looking at secular ways to be useful (going to the store, answering phones, writing an obituary). I've written tons of them knowing they would get into print even if the deceased didn't match our official standards for news stories.
 
I think you're brave to bring this up here Minoosh. From what you are describing I say go for it. I see nothing wrong with praying if it helps you or anyone else. Like you said, you aren't doing it in lieu of other actions.
 
Butter! said:
Defecating on therapy and prayer/meditation, wow. Hot take.
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Well, gather round folks, gather round. Let me tell you a parable. Well, it worked for the Son Of Man, and I'm a son of a man, so...

So I have this relative who, far as I know, still is in pretty much the most horrible abusive marriage ever. Well, according to her, anyway. I haven't talked much to the guy. I'm talking at the level of having been beaten UNCONSCIOUS a few times. Plus raped on a regular basis, and you know, all the good stuff.

Well, guess what? She too didn't want advice, didn't want help, she just wanted an ENABLER to sit and listen and nod and not ask any uncomfortable questions, while she rationalizes for herself why she totally couldn't possibly get out of that situation.

The things people tell you when you you're just shutting up and letting them unload...

And if it were just her, meh, maybe she likes a bit of bdsm, I could theoretically rationalize to myself, but it was about her kids too. I'm talking stuff like being belted until looking like a frikken zebra at a pre-school age. In fact, pretty much the guy would beat the kids up to control her.

Yeah, I should have just called child protection services.

But yeah, that's the PROBLEM with just wanting someone to listen to you rationalize it to yourself, at your own pace, until you figure it out on your own. You might actually never do. You might actually not be even trying to figure it out, but just to keep rationalizing while you're stuck in that bad rut.

And that's the other problem when you think that things are hopeless beyond all possibility of solving them. Guess what? Unless you have cancer, or you're handcuffed to a pipe in the basement and under armed guard, they probably aren't. It's just the chemical balance in your brain that's off and produces only expecting negative outcomes for everything. You just need antidepressants.

ESPECIALLY if you're ever at the point where it seems like the only recourse is talking to an imaginary friend in the sky, you don't need encouragement to do that, you need antidepressants.

Which incidentally is also something she rationalized she didn't need. You know the drill: she's not crazy, she doesn't need to be medicated, etc.


So yeah, I COULD be the "nice" kind of guy who tells people that yeah, it's ok to just want an ENABLER (real or imaginary) to just listen while they rationalize why they can't solve their problems, and why their only left recourse is talking to God. Or I can be an ass hole and tell them to get actual help and solve their problems. Guess which I'll choose every time nowadays...

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