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What if your life (seems) to go better with prayer?

Minoosh

Penultimate Amazing
Minoosh
Joined
Jul 15, 2011
Messages
12,761
I have used prayer before and never was seeking "comfort" or asking for a certain outcome. Rather for something like a boost in some kind of strength, insight or institution. For my purposes, it doesn't really matter if God exists. I just know that if I use it this way, it seems to alter my internal state and I end up coping with situations better than I expected to.

There's a lady here (on a currently locked-down church-run campus for the elderly) who mentions God fairly frequently and I enjoy talking to her. She practiced medicine for 50 years, specializing in ophthalmological surgery. She's not some churchy, stereotypical religious nut. She has also done the guidance-seeking prayer; she applied to medical school on someone else's urging, and when accepted, "told God" she really didn't want to go, but God apparently told her she was supposed to be a doctor. She also takes prayer a step further, believing in the efficacy of intercessory prayer (praying for someone else). She thinks it's been proven, in a double-blind sort of way, which I don't think is true, but I have no desire to argue with her about it.

Maybe once or twice I've told people I would pray for them or a loved one, if I think it might help them to hear it (or if they ask), and then I will make a point of praying for that person, but not in an outcome-based way; more like "Please give so-and-so support in this situation." Well, I don't think God bases medical outcomes or the fate of someone's soul on how hard, or how many, other people pray for them. But the part about looking for guidance, or expressing gratitude? I do that, and when I do it regularly, my life seems to go better. Someone on this forum, I forget who, identifies as atheist but still sometimes puts something out to the universe (paraphrase), deliberately not conceptualizing a God, and she had a reasonable-sounding argument about why it seems to help.

I have no problem, when I'm running on empty, or running out of ideas, or desperate to be of some use in a situation, to ask God, the universe or whatever for strength, courage, or wisdom, and it really has seemed to help at times. On the hand, some people pray and think God is telling then to fly jetliners into tall buildings, so I'm a long way from saying everyone should pray and act on whatever ideas they think they're getting from God. But I think it might have some utility, for some people. Any thoughts?
 
Nothing is going out to the universe. It's all staying in your mind, and frankly, giving yourself a pep talk is often a good idea.
 
It's a great ritual. The "Universe," or just the tree in the back yard makes an excellent therapist. I can express things I'd have difficulty speaking to another Human Being or any individual self with agendas.

Also, when journaling, it helps to have a target reader in mind.
 
If it makes you feel better its good. Religious stuff as a personal therapy is common.
 
I happen to agree with others here that prayer does not go out to any listener, but if you take the time to organize your thoughts, your worries, your desires, and so forth enough to put them into an intelligible prayer, you're probably giving them some careful thought, and establishing what's really important. So sure. And if it makes you feel less burdened and alone, all the better.

It reminds me a little of a South American novelty I got one of my kids long ago, a little basket of "worry dolls." The idea is that before you go to bed, you assign each of the dolls (I think there were 6 or 8) one of the things you worry most about, and let them worry about them for the night. Of course what you're really doing is articulating things, rather than settling for a vague sense of dread.

I've known a couple of people who were basically atheists or at least non-theists, who had no problem with the idea, for example, of the non-petitionary prayer, as a way of putting their appreciation of the world into words. When one of those people would step out the kitchen door on a spring morning and say "Thank you, Lord" it wasn't a sudden conversion to theology.
 
Just because (g)you conceptualize sitting down and reflecting on / thinking about a problem within the context of talking to /sharing your thoughts with some supreme being and that netted you some tangible, provable, objective "net benefit" of some kind, all that would prove is just sitting down and reflecting on / thinking about problems makes them better. You'd have to eliminate that variable, have 50 people pray and 50 people meditate and 50 people just sit there and think about the problem and 50 people ignore the problem and crunch the numbers.
 
I don't think there's anything amiss with what one might call a "prayerful attitude," if that means you stop and think about what you are doing, what you need, and how it all relates to what you hold important. You don't have to believe in some specific being to do so, but prayer is a pretty simple and efficient package.

But I'm also willing to bet that the benefit is in the making, not the transmission, and that the only benefit of praying for someone else comes in the form of a nice feeling they get when you tell them.
 
Apathia said:
It's a great ritual. The "Universe," or just the tree in the back yard makes an excellent therapist. I can express things I'd have difficulty speaking to another Human Being or any individual self with agendas.

Also, when journaling, it helps to have a target reader in mind.
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You're the person I was thinking of.

8enotto said:
If it makes you feel better its good. Religious stuff as a personal therapy is common.
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I guess it makes me feel better, but it has more to do with coping. It seems to help me do better. But then some people pray and decide God wants them to commit mass murder, so I'm a long way from saying it's always a positive.

bruto said:
It reminds me a little of a South American novelty I got one of my kids long ago, a little basket of "worry dolls." The idea is that before you go to bed, you assign each of the dolls (I think there were 6 or 8) one of the things you worry most about, and let them worry about them for the night. Of course what you're really doing is articulating things, rather than settling for a vague sense of dread.
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That's exactly what's happening. What am I "really doing"? Your explanation works fine, but I'm OK with calling this "prayer."

I had typed out an anecdote about what brought me to this state, but it started to sound like someone else's long, incomprehensible dream. Basically I was terrified that someone would drink himself to death. I started praying because it seemed like the only option.

Lots of weird coincidences and in the end he did die (no one knows why). By then I was close to acceptance. Several people had tried to save his life.

JoeMorgue said:
Just because (g)you conceptualize sitting down and reflecting on / thinking about a problem within the context of talking to /sharing your thoughts with some supreme being and that netted you some tangible, provable, objective "net benefit" of some kind, all that would prove is just sitting down and reflecting on / thinking about problems makes them better. You'd have to eliminate that variable, have 50 people pray and 50 people meditate and 50 people just sit there and think about the problem and 50 people ignore the problem and crunch the numbers.
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I know. I'm not trying to convince anyone. I don't identify as atheist, but there's no religion I buy into either.

What happens seems pretty far removed from conceptualizing, analyzing, articulating etc. Almost the opposite. Setting thought aside and chanting some brief supplication. Alternatively, doing a more formal meditation that is also based on a prayer.
 
Minoosh said:
But I think it might have some utility, for some people. Any thoughts?
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Yep, you should harden the **** up and pray to a pet rock. Or even better, go for a walk and smell the flowers. Send your best wishes, not prayers.

People often say to me that a small amount of religion is harmless.

I disagree, seeing the fundamentalists building their empires on a bedrock of acceptance that religion isn't actively evil.

It is.

We'd be far better to encourage rational thinking all the time and not give it a swerve when we have a problem.
 
The only problem with having an imaginary friend to talk to as therapy, is that therapy doesn't seem to actually DO anything even with a human therapist. The whole idea that that actually solves anything, is based on Sigmund Fraud... err... Freud's making up a bunch of BS, including purely imaginary cases that got solved that way, and cases where he claimed that everything was solved even if we now know that the patient actually ended up in a loony bin anyway.

Pretty much if you were bored and lonely, talking to someone about your problems is temporarily solving that problem: feeling bored and lonely. But no other problem.

That said, if talking to an imaginary friend does the trick for you, go for it.
 
HansMustermann said:
The only problem with having an imaginary friend to talk to as therapy, is that therapy doesn't seem to actually DO anything even with a human therapist. The whole idea that that actually solves anything, is based on Sigmund Fraud... err... Freud's making up a bunch of BS, including purely imaginary cases that got solved that way, and cases where he claimed that everything was solved even if we now know that the patient actually ended up in a loony bin anyway.
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You don't think therapy helps anyone?
 
Well, it helps the therapist make a living. And as I was saying, if you're just feeling bored and lonely, talking to someone might make you feel less bored and lonely for the rest of the day. But that's about it.
 
I think it was Jung that advocated throwing the I Ching, not prophetically, but as a tool to bring thoughts to the surface. Whatever works.
 
Thermal said:
I think it was Jung that advocated throwing the I Ching, not prophetically, but as a tool to bring thoughts to the surface. Whatever works.
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This thread is sincere, but I also was curious if I could talk about it without notes of ridicule arising. It didn’t take long. That’s not personal ridicule (I don’t think) but the concept certainly arose. I started getting advice about what to do instead, but I do those things also. Exercise, nature walks, talk to friends, hire a useless therapist. (Useless according to another poster, and if I think therapy ever helped me, I must be deluded, but that’s a given anyway - and all therapy is psychoanalysis, apparently).

It sounds like Jung is talking about accessing intuition, and I think intuition is a real thing, sometimes inaccessible if the conscious mind is too noisy (for lack of a better word). There may be people who believe that everything they do is the result of their conscious, rational minds, but for me it doesn’t always work that way.

I’m sure plenty of people think Jung is either a fraud or a fool, or perhaps both, but I’m open to the kind of thing you’re talking about - especially if one has already taken a walk, had a talk with a friend etc. and still doesn’t know what to do. Sometimes there’s nothing you *can* do, but that doesn’t mean I’m against thinking rationally or taking a walk in the woods etc. I might end up praying on Election Day, but that doesn’t mean I’m not going to vote.
 
Minoosh said:
This thread is sincere, but I also was curious if I could talk about it without notes of ridicule arising. It didn’t take long. That’s not personal ridicule (I don’t think) but the concept certainly arose. I started getting advice about what to do instead, but I do those things also. Exercise, nature walks, talk to friends, hire a useless therapist. (Useless according to another poster, and if I think therapy ever helped me, I must be deluded, but that’s a given anyway - and all therapy is psychoanalysis, apparently).
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Well, my point is basically this: if you already have friends you can talk to, exactly what else does a therapist bring to the table, other than charge you for letting you talk to him? Psychoanalysis doesn't actually work, and any other problem he's probably not any more qualified to help you with than your friends or for that matter than talking to wall.
 
Minoosh said:
This thread is sincere, but I also was curious if I could talk about it without notes of ridicule arising. It didn’t take long. That’s not personal ridicule (I don’t think) but the concept certainly arose. I started getting advice about what to do instead, but I do those things also. Exercise, nature walks, talk to friends, hire a useless therapist. (Useless according to another poster, and if I think therapy ever helped me, I must be deluded, but that’s a given anyway - and all therapy is psychoanalysis, apparently).

It sounds like Jung is talking about accessing intuition, and I think intuition is a real thing, sometimes inaccessible if the conscious mind is too noisy (for lack of a better word). There may be people who believe that everything they do is the result of their conscious, rational minds, but for me it doesn’t always work that way.

I’m sure plenty of people think Jung is either a fraud or a fool, or perhaps both, but I’m open to the kind of thing you’re talking about - especially if one has already taken a walk, had a talk with a friend etc. and still doesn’t know what to do. Sometimes there’s nothing you *can* do, but that doesn’t mean I’m against thinking rationally or taking a walk in the woods etc. I might end up praying on Election Day, but that doesn’t mean I’m not going to vote.
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arthwollipot said:
That's what I use Tarot for.
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I think that prayer, Tarot, etc are great ways of putting your quiet thoughts into words, which can give you a fresh perspective. I like to surf (the water kind more than the interwebs kind), and often get hit with a sense of connectedness, a kind of thankful state of grace. It's a beautiful feeling, that I don't mind personifying (deifying?) to being touched by God. You don't have to be a believer (I'm not) to relish that good vibe, or dismiss it as irrationality to keep the world in neat boxes. Things that bring you peace are good things. If a little prayer settles you, it's a win. If some guy comes up talking about how you should give him 10% of your money for that good feeling, he's probably not on the same wavelength. **** him. For all the strength and power of critical thinking and rationality, surrendering to awe once in a while is no harm, no foul. Pray, or read Tarot, throw the I Ching. We all get our little shots of transcendence FTW.
 
I think for a very large chunk of human history, religion was very central to a lot of people's lives and their framing of the world. So EVERYTHINg got rolled up and framed in religious terms. Kings ruled by divine right. Churches (or temples) tended to be some of the few places which had excess resources (tithed from the rest of society) so they'd be centers of art, and scholarship. People's moral intuitions became religious beliefs to the extent that even today many religious folks can't imagine morality existing outside their religion.

I believe that what we call "prayer" is in many cases, thoughtful reflection and meditation on your needs, wants, moral quandries, failures, fears etc. in an externalized way. Because for so much of our history, religion made everything its own, then it becomes "communicating with god" or in the case of eastern religious framing, some other spiritual mold.

There's lots of good stuff in religious practice. I'm convinced that the large majority of it would work more or less as well or better if extricated from the religious trappings.
 
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