What if God wasn't omnipotent...

Yahweh

Philosopher
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Is god really omnipotent, or does he exist outside of logic?

"Do you believe in God?"

"Yes."

"Ok, is god omnipotent?"

"Yes."

"That means he can do anything. He has unlimited power, right?"

"That's right."

"Well god can make a burrito can't he?"

"Yes."

"He can make it really hot can't he?"

"Yes, what's the point?"

"I wanted to ask this: Can God make a burrito so hot, that even he himself could not eat it?"

"Ummm... SHUTUP!"

"Ohh! I'm pointing and laughing at you because I caught you in a fit of logic."

"God exists outside of logic. He can make circles with corners."

[End of Dialogue]

Usually it doesn't take more than a few rationalizations to come to the conclusion that God cannot logically exist... no, that isn't what I did. I have created 2 possible godly conclusions:
1. God is not omnipotent.
2. Being god allows you to break the laws of logic.
How do I respond when someone says to me that God exists outside of logic?
 
Thinking about it, I think a circle with corners could exist. Dictionary.com defines a circle as "A plane curve everywhere equidistant from a given fixed point, the center." Technically if you use some visual spatial skills, you could possibly create a circle with corners that exists on a 3-dimensional space, just as long as every given point is the same distance from the center. Perhaps it wouldn't be a circle if it doesn't exist on a flat plane... damn geometry that I've never used... I've forgotten it years ago.
 
Quote:Perhaps it wouldn't be a circle if it doesn't exist on a flat plane...


No, it would be a sphere.
 
Re: Is god really omnipotent, or does he exist outside of logic?

Yahweh said:
I have created 2 possible godly conclusions:
1. God is not omnipotent.
2. Being god allows you to break the laws of logic [and thus be omnipotent].
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There is, at least, a couple more options.
3) We don't understand the laws of logic.
4) We don't understand what it means to be omnipotent.

Not that it helps you with your problem.
How do I respond when someone says to me that God exists outside of logic?
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Best way to respond is to nod your head and smile. If someone is a true believer (whatever the subject), there is no talking them out of it as their belief is not based on logic or reason but on faith.
 
Best way to respond is to nod your head and smile. If someone is a true believer (whatever the subject), there is no talking them out of it as their belief is not based on logic or reason but on faith.
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It still confuses me as to why logic and rationality still fail the test when it's put up against inner convictions... somehow that seems unwholesome.
 
Yahweh said:

It still confuses me as to why logic and rationality still fail the test when it's put up against inner convictions... somehow that seems unwholesome.
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Perhaps. :con2:

The problem is that humans, in general, and human psychology, specifically, are complex critters. Simple logic is insufficient to explain their behaviors (i.e. why one can believe in two things that are contradictory at the same time). Worse, people like to think that simple logic is sufficient. It's called "common sense", which, after a point, is probably the biggest impediment to actual understanding.
 
Yahweh,

How do I respond when someone says to me that God exists outside of logic?
Click to expand...

You could try pointing out to them that the statement "God exists outside of logic" is, by construction, either false or meaningless.

The statements "X exists" and "X does not exist" are logical statements. Likewise, the distinction between the two statements is a logical one. By definition, something which is not logically self-consistent does not exist. If a particular conception of God is not logically self-consistent, then it does not exist.

Thus the statement is either false (if you do not reject logic altogether), or meaningless (if you do).


Or you could skip all the philosophical mumbo-jumbo, and just tell him that if he believes that things which are not logically self-consistent can exist, then he is irrational, and there is no point in trying to have any kind of rational discussion with him about anything.

Dr. Stupid
 
sorgoth said:
Quote:Perhaps it wouldn't be a circle if it doesn't exist on a flat plane...


No, it would be a sphere.
Click to expand...
How about a single line drawn through 3d space... much like those wireframe models that are used in 3d computer graphics design.
 
As I recall, we had this discussion a long while back, only the question was: "Can god create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?"

The rock question didn't really make sense in the context of what some people think god is, and would imply god could take a physical form and perform manual labor.

Such is the case with the burrito. Making a burrito so hot he can't eat it would imply that god has a mouth, and a digestive system, again pinning him down as a human form with superhuman powers.

Since no one can agree on a definition of god, or describe physical attributes for that god, your question is meaningless.
 
I was thinking about that earlier... about how physical attributes are useless. Can anyone think of a "logic" or "mental" attribute because obviously most people would define god as having some kind of consciousness and sentientness (spelling?).
 
dwb said:
The rock question didn't really make sense in the context of what some people think god is, and would imply god could take a physical form and perform manual labor.
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But, being omnipotent, God has the potential to perform manual labor and take physical form. For God not to have this potential is for God to not be omnipotent.
 
I dont know how God is defined. I would assume it suggests unlimited power. Still, if god wasnt omnipotent, does that in some way bar him from being god.
 
If I was a theist I would respond in this manner.

Being omnipotent only implies that you can do anything that is logically possible. A burrito (whats with the mexican food?) that is to hot for god to eat can not exist because god can eat everything thus one can not expect god to make something that logically can't exist.
 
Yahweh said:
I was thinking about that earlier... about how physical attributes are useless. Can anyone think of a "logic" or "mental" attribute...
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Not a "logic" or "mental" attribute, but here is something that I think is the kind of thing you are looking for to create your paradox:

(1) Can god create something evil?
(2) Can god create something so evil that it is impossible for it to be (saved/redeemed/forgiven)?

For those who believe in god as being the creator, there is the question of whether god created evil or whether evil somehow came into creation through some other agency. That leads to the first question I suggest above, "Can god create evil?" If god is all-good, that creates a number of possible paradoxes.

If the person believes that god is capable of creating something evil, then the question of whether god can create something so evil that even god isn't able to turn it to good is a variation of the old "rock so heavy god can't lift it" which does not rely on god having physical-lifting attributes.
 
Ask him if God has the power to destroy Himself utterly.

Seriously, though, we have discussed the subject of divine omnipotence in the past, and it generally gets bogged down in definitions. My view, which I think is the one prevalent among philosophers of religion, is that there are no non-logical limits to God's power. I accept that omnipotence denotes the power to do all things, but the inability to create a square circle or a married bachelor doesn't undermine omnipotence because those aren't really things at all, properly understood. They're just nonsensical semantic wordplay.
 
Upchurch said:
But, being omnipotent, God has the potential to perform manual labor and take physical form. For God not to have this potential is for God to not be omnipotent.
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Without getting into too much wordplay, you're right. As long as it makes sense that a "spirit", if you will, can take a human form, then god can lift the rock. If taking a human form is beyond the logical limits of what a spirit can do, then the answer becomes obvious.

Being all powerful, and being able to perform actions that are not logically comprehensible, are not the same thing.
 
dwb said:
Being all powerful, and being able to perform actions that are not logically comprehensible, are not the same thing.
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Agreed.

As I remember, there was a thread where the conclusion was drawn that the term "omnipotent" itself was logically inconsistant and couldn't, or shouldn't anyway, be applied to... well, anything that was proporting to be logically consistant.

A corollary of this idea would be that any argument using omnipotence as one of its premises is automatically logically inconsistant. So, if one wanted to create a logically consistant definition of God, one could not use "omnipotent" as a descriptor.
 
Yahweh said:
Thinking about it, I think a circle with corners could exist.
(snip)
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A circle is a regular polygon with an infinite number of corners.

Trivial! Give God something harder. :)
 
Yes, we have had this discussion many, many times before.

These kinds of questions all boil down to the question
"Can God do something He can't do?"

The answer, of course, is "no". But that is not to say that there's a limit on God's power. If one can do anything, then the set of things you can't do is the empty set.

In other words, God can't make a burrito so hot that even He can't eat it because no such burrito can be made. Not by God, not by anyone. Not even by a hypothetical being with more power than God. It's not that it's "merely" really, really hard to make such a burrito; it's unimaginable to make such a burrito.

Omnipotence means "as powerful as possible", not "powerful enough to do logically absurd things".
 
And we always wind up with:

God can do anything that is consistant with the logical laws of the universe.

Therefore, God is subordinate to the logical laws of the universe the universe.

Therefore, God is not the highest power in the universe.

Next turtle, please.
 
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