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What I don't Understand About Kerry's "Alliance Building"

Dorian Gray said:
For example, when the US was supplying Saddam with weapons, he stayed in power.

And he stayed in power for 15 years after the US stopped supporting him. I suppose the US sold him AK47's and missile technology and Russian tanks and spare parts.


Dorian Gray said:


Yes, the containment cost us billions of dollars, but the war cost us nothing - we had a coupon! .

Oh but the rest of the world would jump in and help with a war or the after affects. Just like they did not help with the containment efforts, in fact they were more than willing to supply Iraq with weapons.

Dorian Gray said:

Would you like to explain how Saddam was less contained than bin Laden?
.

Saddam had complete freedom to move his operatives in and out of his country; he still maintained embassies in many countries including the United Nations in New York. The flow of weapons was unrestricted via Syria and Jordan, and he was helping (by sending expertise) to Libya on their weapons programs. Bin Laden was only supported directly by other Islamic fanatics, Sadam had support from the same, in addition to many western countries.


Dorian Gray said:


I will bet $5 million that anyone familiar with this situation would say they believe very strongly that Saddam could not have struck us from Afghanistan. I say the same about Iraq, only without the $5 million.

So you can find experts who are dumb enough to believe that if Saddam approached the Taliban or al Alcada with chemical or biological weapons, that they would be to high principled to take up his offer? Well, Kerry’s advisors aside I would like to find a "real Expert”.
 
Kerry called the nations who allied with the US in the war in Iraq the "coerced and mislead" (or words to that effect). Which means that the US's allies are either cowardly (for being "coerced' by the US) or stupid (for having been "mislead" by it).

What an awful thing to say!

[President (of Poland)]ALEKSANDER KWASNIEWSKI (translated): They deceived us about the weapons of mass destruction, that's true. We were taken for a ride.
http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2004/s1069242.htm

What an awful thing to be perfectly accurate about!

(edited to add url)
 
Meadmaker said:
To do what? Disarm? Bad news. He did that.

There's no evidence that he did. If he did disarm, why weren't the sanctions lifted?

But I agree that France, Germany and China would not have agreed to go to war. However, I believe that if the situation had been handled differently, they would have agreed to contribute men, materials, moral support, or some combination thereof to the rebuilding and occupation of Iraq.

That is all speculation. I don't believe France, Germany, or China would every agree to war with Iraq. No matter who was in the oval office. They have no intention of doing so even if Kerry is elected. China won't even support sanctions against N Korea.

George Bush told the world in no uncertain terms that we were in charge and that things would be done our way. This alienated a lot of people, inside and outside of Iraq. We are paying a very high price for that today.

So the 30 some odd countries are worthless? It would make all the difference if Germany and France were with us? I agree with Bush that the situation called for being tough. 12 years of sanctions and 16 resolutions had no effect on Saddam.

A lot of people have been complaining about "Islamofascism" and similar phrases. I look at Iraq and see an Islamic Republic in the making. Whatever the outcome in Iraq, George Bush will deserve the credit, or the blame. Right now, to me, it looks like it is going to be blame.

Just like Afghanistan is now, eh?
 
Yes, Kerry's alliance building is empty rhetoric. Don't try to examine it.

Let's face it, if we need troops there are a limited number of countries who have troops trained well enough for urban combat as the US/UK or who speak english and can integrate well with our forces.

Having a multi-country military proved to bad during Gulf war I. You get things done faster and with more coordination using one primary force from one country. Sorry, but thats what the evidence shows. If you can whack em with your own army, coordinating with units from 30 others will just slow down. This is why we put the small units from other countries working supplies and such in the new Iraq conflict.

The only country we would really desire troops from at this point is Israel, and we as hell aren't going that route.

If anything, the alliance building talk is just sugary talk designed to make him a more qualified president to people who don't know better (which is the vast majority of the country).
 
merphie said:
That is all speculation. I don't believe France, Germany, or China would every agree to war with Iraq.
France was part of the Desert Storm coalition. The link states Germany was, but I didn't see them listed on the contribution page. Just because GWB couldn't get them involved doesn't mean someone else couldn't. You may want to consider letting a bit more light behind your Bush blinders.
 
Speaking of multinational forces, anyone happen to see the panic in the Blue hats in Haiti? Yes sir another wonderful UN success story.
 
DavidJames said:
France was part of the Desert Storm coalition. The link states Germany was, but I didn't see them listed on the contribution page. Just because GWB couldn't get them involved doesn't mean someone else couldn't. You may want to consider letting a bit more light behind your Bush blinders.



Desert Storm, wasn't that the war the Kerry Voted against?


Iraq owed France 33billion dollars; do you think that had any influence on their unwillingness to invade? France had its own economic reasons for keeping Saddam in power, now where did they state that we are not going to war because they did not like GWB? France agreed with the resolution that said Iraq had WMD, and the terms of the resolution that said there would be serious repercussions if Saddam refused to co-operate with the inspectors.

So tell me what plan did France have to force Saddam to honor the UN resolutions?
 
DavidJames said:
France was part of the Desert Storm coalition. The link states Germany was, but I didn't see them listed on the contribution page. Just because GWB couldn't get them involved doesn't mean someone else couldn't. You may want to consider letting a bit more light behind your Bush blinders.

Oh so they could have been sweet talked when they never agreed about the reasons to go to war the second time.

I wasn't talking about the first gulf war. Just because they agreed the first time doesn't mean they would go the second one.

Maybe you should quite reading so much Kerry propaganda.
 
merphie said:
Oh so they could have been sweet talked when they never agreed about the reasons to go to war the second time.

I wasn't talking about the first gulf war. Just because they agreed the first time doesn't mean they would go the second one.

Maybe you should quite reading so much Kerry propaganda.
Merpie please....

You said:
I don't believe France, Germany, or China would every agree to war with Iraq.
My point is coalitions can be built to go to war with Iraq, GWB's daddy showed that. People and countries make decisions and can change "their" minds. Just because your personal savior can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done. Don't bother replying if you can't come to grips with anything that remotely suggests GWB is wrong.
 
SRW said:
Desert Storm, wasn't that the war the Kerry Voted against?
Was it, I don't know, you make the claim? support it.
Iraq owed France 33billion dollars; do you think that had any influence on their unwillingness to invade?
I don't know, you make the claim, support it.
France had its own economic reasons for keeping Saddam in power, now where did they state that we are not going to war because they did not like GWB?
Where did I state they did?
 
Originally posted by DavidJames

:rolleyes:

I was speaking of kerry the "coalition builder". If you read the sentence out of context it makes sense as you say it. Too Bad we were talking about the second gulf war and Kerry's abilities to bring more countries in.

Just because GWB couldn't get them involved doesn't mean someone else couldn't. You may want to consider letting a bit more light behind your Bush blinders.

It seemed like you understood that. You can't just move the goal post.

My point is coalitions can be built to go to war with Iraq, GWB's daddy showed that. People and countries make decisions and can change "their" minds. Just because your personal savior can't do it doesn't mean it can't be done. Don't bother replying if you can't come to grips with anything that remotely suggests GWB is wrong.

Apples and Oranges. We went for different reasons. The fact is France and Germany didn't see a reason to go to war then (Second war) and they said they wouldn't go now (after elections). They did offer some assitance in Iraq (second war). They refuse to send troops. It doesn't matter what I believe. It matters what they believe.

I know it's hard to see past the propaganda, but you have to at least try.
 
Dorian Gray said:
Careful what you wish for..... but then, you carefully researched this before making your claim, right? I'd hate to think that you were in denial or just repeating claims made by a conservative talk show host.

Yawn.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
The US never told countries it supplied weapons to not to share them with Iraq.

Umm... so?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-09-30-iraq-ushelp_x.htm
The US supplied germ strains directly to Iraq's biological weapons programs..

It does not follow from the article that we supplied germs "directly to Iraq's biological weapons programs"

..and germs are not weapons..

..and Iraq never used biological weapons. Iraq liked chemical weapons.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...ode=&contentId=A52241-2002Dec29&notFound=true
The US also supplied chemicals they knew would be, and in fact were, used as chemical weapons - ironically, the very same agents in the charge that Saddam gassed his own people.

What chemicals did we supply that were used as chemical weapons? Are you suggesting we supplied VX? Perhaps you are suggesting we supplied Mustar? Hmm.. maybe you are suggesting that we supplied Botulin? Seems that link of yours doesnt claim we supplied any chemical weapons.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/longroad/etc/arming.html
The US sold Iraq the technology for chemical, biological AND nuclear weapons.

Also known as the technologies of chemical synthesis, biological research, and nuclear energy production.

Oh.. those were weapons? Thanks for declaring them weapons. You seem to have declared many non-weapons as weapons so far.

That should be enough, but trust me, there are a vast number of sites detailing US involvement in Iraq acquiring weapons.

Oh thats all? So no actual weapons or anything? Thanks.

So basically.. you've presented all you got and none of it backs up your claim that the United States supplied Iraq with weapons.

Forget giving links that back up your claim that the United States supplied Iraq with weapons.. I have an easier task for you.. simply name a single weapon! Just name one!


An eighth grade civics class will teach you about how states have to ratify any changes to the Constitution, and have done so. Perhaps less well known is that 'ratify' is another way of saying 'vote for'. Also, each state has equal representation in the Senate.

I would like to point out the irony that each state has subjugated itself to the authority of the federal government, and that is widely accepted, but somehow the US merely being part of a coalition is viewed as 'subjugating' the US.

Yes, because we all know that the US has never appeased a dictator - in fact, the US has not appeased Fidel Castro and Yasser Arafat for over 40 years! There has also never been a scandal in the US government, and the US has never killed anyone who didn't deserve it.

At this time, I would like to point out that the US could not have defeated the Germans alone EITHER, so we're not quite the heroes that people make us out to be. I mean, if a big guy is beating up a smaller guy, and another guy comes along to help the underdog and they beat up the attacker, was the underdog 'saved' by the new arrival, or did it just even the odds? We still would have defeated the Japanese however, because of our love bombs of moral superiority and efficiency.

I guess someone called in sick at McDonald's and they called you in, because in the debate you apparently missed Bush came out in favor of a coalition to negotiate with North Korea, and he also referred to those on board with the US in Iraq as a 'coalition'.

Your comment tells us one of two things: either it is a false dichotomy, or you are a flaming homosexual.

Did you intend to make it look like this last bunch of horse ◊◊◊◊ was directed at me? Thanks. Not only are you a liar but you are also tactically deceptive and prone to making personal attacks on people when things arent going well for your arguement.
 
DavidJames said:
Was it, I don't know, you make the claim? support it. I don't know, you make the claim, support it.
Where did I state they did?

Sorry if you don't read your own post why should I point out what you said.

Public record, kerry voted against the first Iraq war.

Public record you said Bush could not convince France to go to war. You did not give one reason why you believe someone else could. Dispite the public record of Iraq owing France 33billion. And the public record that France did not come up with an alternitave to the war. If you don't know anything then I suggest you stop posting and making a fool of yourself.
 
SRW said:
Sorry if you don't read your own post why should I point out what you said.
Huh?

Public record, kerry voted against the first Iraq war.

Public record you said Bush could not convince France to go to war. You did not give one reason why you believe someone else could. Dispite the public record of Iraq owing France 33billion. And the public record that France did not come up with an alternitave to the war. If you don't know anything then I suggest you stop posting and making a fool of yourself.
public record?

Next time, trying responding to what I actually say. Provide the quote and respond.

Next time, because of your arrogance, you've lost your chance this time.

Edit - You made the claims, what I know is not the point, you made the claims you need to provide the evidence. Have a great day :rolleyes:
 
merphie said:
Apples and Oranges. We went for different reasons. The fact is France and Germany didn't see a reason to go to war then (Second war) and they said they wouldn't go now (after elections). They did offer some assitance in Iraq (second war). They refuse to send troops. It doesn't matter what I believe. It matters what they believe.
Ok, you win, nobody could possible achive what GWB is unable to. Can't happen, no way. :rolleyes:

That is what you believe.

Don't be shocked if other believe differently, however.
 
corplinx said:
Yes, Kerry's alliance building is empty rhetoric. Don't try to examine it.

Let's face it, if we need troops there are a limited number of countries who have troops trained well enough for urban combat as the US/UK or who speak english and can integrate well with our forces.

Having a multi-country military proved to bad during Gulf war I. You get things done faster and with more coordination using one primary force from one country. Sorry, but thats what the evidence shows. If you can whack em with your own army, coordinating with units from 30 others will just slow down. This is why we put the small units from other countries working supplies and such in the new Iraq conflict.

The only country we would really desire troops from at this point is Israel, and we as hell aren't going that route.

If anything, the alliance building talk is just sugary talk designed to make him a more qualified president to people who don't know better (which is the vast majority of the country).

But look at the difference in outcomes between the GW1 and GW2. The US didn't commit any really stupid blunders in the first, yet it did in the second. Nothing wrong with having some restraint on rash actions too.
 
DavidJames said:
Huh? public record?

Next time, trying responding to what I actually say. Provide the quote and respond.

Next time, because of your arrogance, you've lost your chance this time.

Edit - You made the claims, what I know is not the point, you made the claims you need to provide the evidence. Have a great day :rolleyes:


Like your intrested in anyting anyone has to say. If you ever pull you head out the sand let me know I'll fill you in. Your the one who likes to speculate with out providing facts. If you care about anyting you would look for the truth before making ◊◊◊◊ up. I don't have time to deal with someoone who speculates then demands proofe of others.
 
DavidJames said:
Ok, you win, nobody could possible achive what GWB is unable to. Can't happen, no way. :rolleyes:

That is what you believe.

Don't be shocked if other believe differently, however.

Sure it is my opinion. I in no way said that Bush's way was the only way. I am saying Kerry's Idea is stupid. I am in no way trying to force anyone to see anything. In fact it's impossible. I am shocked when people can't look past what they believe.

You can not show any other good alternatives. You are acting like a parrot of the Kerry Campaign. Show me one good alternative and why it would work. If I Given good evidence I will change my world view. It's that simple. I refuse to take anyone's opinion or personal insults as fact. That includes a wanna-be president or you.

I don't believe that bilateral talks is the way to go. That is exactly what Kim Jong Ill wants. If that happens he will attempt to make the bilateral talks the only talks. If we give an inch he will take a yard. He has proven he can not be trusted.

They effect everyone around them and it is important to bring everyone to the table to apply pressure to N Korea. China is the biggest and most important player. We should avoid any action if there is a remote chance that the multi-national talks could be endangered.

That would be like handing a spoiled brat everything they want. They stop crying but they don't stop being a spoiled brat.
 
Saddam had complete freedom to move his operatives in and out of his country; he still maintained embassies in many countries including the United Nations in New York. The flow of weapons was unrestricted via Syria and Jordan, and he was helping (by sending expertise) to Libya on their weapons programs. Bin Laden was only supported directly by other Islamic fanatics, Sadam had support from the same, in addition to many western countries.
Osama bin Laden received CIA training. Osama bin Laden was a guest of the Taliban, who was at the time the government of Afghanistan, and who refused to turn Osama bin Laden over to our little shindig. Osama bin Laden still had support from Saudi Arabia, and loads of money.

Saddam Hussein had been defeated, had had no-fly zones put on his country, and his OPERATIVES, Mr. Red Herring, could have had telekinetic abilities for all I care, because we were talking about Saddam himself specifically and Osama himself specifically.

I guess I won't ask you to prove all your claims about the flow of weapons and Libya, even though I should.

So you can find experts who are dumb enough to believe that if Saddam approached the Taliban or al Alcada with chemical or biological weapons, that they would be to high principled to take up his offer? Well, Kerry’s advisors aside I would like to find a "real Expert”.
Here's a large hint: Saddam Hussein was the leader of IRAQ, not Afghanistan. This is a mistake I was kidding you about before, a mistake you have made twice now. Saddam Hussein would not strike from Afghanistan since he had absolutely no control over Afghanistan whatsoever.

Ah, but I see what you are implying. Unfortunately, that, too, is wrong. You see, next door in Pakistan there was a Dr. Khan who, instead of handing out lollipops, handed out nuclear secrets with each visit. (Yes, I know Khan wasn't that kind of doctor.) So why would Osama or the Taliban or al-Qaida go to Saddam Hussein for anything, when they had ties with Pakistan and Dr. Khan, and by some CIA accounts, still do?

So the 30 some odd countries are worthless? It would make all the difference if Germany and France were with us? I agree with Bush that the situation called for being tough. 12 years of sanctions and 16 resolutions had no effect on Saddam.
Most of the countries that are in the coalition are worthless militarily, yes.

Having a multi-country military proved to bad during Gulf war I. You get things done faster and with more coordination using one primary force from one country. Sorry, but thats what the evidence shows.
In what way? In the sense that the multi-country military succeeded in ousting Iraq from Kuwait? Or that it won the Gulf War?

In fact, Corplinx, the evidence from the last 100 years shows that having a multi-country military is SUPERIOR to having one primary force. Look:
Major wars where there was a multi-country military: WWI, WWII, Gulf War
Result: victory, victory, and victory

Major wars where the US was the primary force: Korea, Vietnam, Iraq war
Result: Draw, loss, and "mission accomplished" (wink)

If anything, the alliance building talk is based on historically proven facts. If anything else, I find it hard to believe that you could fit so many things up your ass, much less pull them out in one post, Mr. Corplinx.

Iraq owed France 33billion dollars; do you think that had any influence on their unwillingness to invade?
Let me put it this way: no.
France to forgive some Iraq debt

From CNN Correspondent Jim Bittermann
Monday, December 15, 2003 Posted: 8:19 AM EST (1319 GMT)

PARIS, France (CNN) -- France is willing to work with Iraq to forgive some of its debt, French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin says.

All totaled, Iraq owes foreign governments around $120 billion. France is one of Iraq's major debt-holders, but just how much debt the country would be willing to forgive was not disclosed Monday.

De Villepin specifically referred to $19.8 billion owed to the so-called "Club of Paris," a group of first world nations that have loaned Iraq money in the past. Of that total, $3 billion of the debt is owed to France.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/12/15/sprj.irq.france.debt/
By the way, did you catch that last figure? Here it is again :
Of that total, $3 billion of the debt is owed to France.
It's just $3 billion. Would you like to just go ahead and admit that you make everything up in your posts?
 
It does not follow from the article that we supplied germs "directly to Iraq's biological weapons programs"
From the article:
The CDC, meanwhile, sent shipments of germs to the Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission and other agencies involved in Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. It sent samples in 1986 of botulinum toxin and botulinum toxiod — used to make vaccines against botulinum toxin — directly to the Iraqi chemical and biological weapons complex at al-Muthanna, the records show.
In fact, it DIRECTLY follows.

..and germs are not weapons..
Jesus Christ!
Invoices included in the documents read like shopping lists for biological weapons programs. One 1986 shipment from the Virginia-based American Type Culture Collection included three strains of anthrax, six strains of the bacteria that make botulinum toxin and three strains of the bacteria that cause gas gangrene. Iraq later admitted to the United Nations that it had made weapons out of all three.
Anthrax is an acute bacterial disease of animals and humans that can be incurred by ingestion or inhalation of the bacterial spores or through skin lesions. Untreated, it is able to produce a fatal infection. Botulinum toxin can produce an acute muscular paralysis resulting in death of animals or humans.
Wrong again! Are you some kind of f**king masochist? Do you enjoy being publicly humiliated time and time again? Because I aim to please.

..and Iraq never used biological weapons. Iraq liked chemical weapons.
Finally, a lucky guess. Except that not using them is completely different from not HAVING them. See the United States nuclear arsenal for details.

Admit it. You didn't even read the article, you douche bag.

What chemicals did we supply that were used as chemical weapons? Are you suggesting we supplied VX? Perhaps you are suggesting we supplied Mustar? Hmm.. maybe you are suggesting that we supplied Botulin? Seems that link of yours doesnt claim we supplied any chemical weapons.
I am literally saying that we supplied botulin - but that's a biological weapon. I know you think you're asking about the other stuff rhetorically, but nope, it's from ignorance:
How did Iraq get its weapons? We sold them

By Neil Mackay and Felicity Arbuthnot

THE US and Britain sold Saddam Hussein the technology and materials Iraq needed to develop nuclear, chemical and biological wea pons of mass destruction.

Reports by the US Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs Ð which oversees American exports policy reveal that the US, under the successive administrations of Ronald Reagan and George Bush Snr, sold materials including anthrax, VX nerve gas, West Nile fever germs and botulism to Iraq right up until March 1992, as well as germs similar to tuberculosis and pneumonia. Other bacteria sold included brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene.
http://www.sundayherald.com/27572
What, that's not good enough for you, you pain-loving beeyatch? Fine:
A review of thousands of declassified government documents and interviews with former policymakers shows that U.S. intelligence and logistical support played a crucial role in shoring up Iraqi defenses against the "human wave" attacks by suicidal Iranian troops. The administrations of Ronald Reagan and George H.W. Bush authorized the sale to Iraq of numerous items that had both military and civilian applications, including poisonous chemicals and deadly biological viruses, such as anthrax and bubonic plague.

Although U.S. export controls to Iraq were tightened up in the late 1980s, there were still many loopholes. In December 1988, Dow Chemical sold $1.5 million of pesticides to Iraq, despite U.S. government concerns that they could be used as chemical warfare agents. An Export-Import Bank official reported in a memorandum that he could find "no reason" to stop the sale, despite evidence that the pesticides were "highly toxic" to humans and would cause death "from asphyxiation."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...ode=&contentId=A52241-2002Dec29&notFound=true

Oh thats all? So no actual weapons or anything? Thanks.

So basically.. you've presented all you got and none of it backs up your claim that the United States supplied Iraq with weapons.

Forget giving links that back up your claim that the United States supplied Iraq with weapons.. I have an easier task for you.. simply name a single weapon! Just name one!
This quote seems pretty f**king laughable now, huh? No, I meant to everyone else.Name one thing you have said that wasn't pulled directly from Corplinx's..... I mean, your ass.

Just name one!

Did you intend to make it look like this last bunch of horse ◊◊◊◊ was directed at me? Thanks. Not only are you a liar but you are also tactically deceptive and prone to making personal attacks on people when things arent going well for your arguement.
If you made the statement in quotes, genius, then my comment below is directed at you. If not, then not. Was that too hard for you to figure out? How ironic that you 'personally attack' me when I am absolutely demolishing all your arguments - in the same statement, no less.

Not only have I backed up my claims mightily and completely destroyed all of your credibility and arguments, but I am prone to making personal attacks on a knee-jerk ignorant sheepish conservative talking point parrot shill douche bag like yourself when it becomes overwhelmingly necessary.

I would like to apologize for my deceptive tactic of having actual proof and of having done actual research to support what I say. That is just wrong. I wish I could stop. I want to stop. I desparately want to start pulling things from my anus just like you and Corplinx do - you make it seem so easy.

Alas, I can't.
 

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