Split Thread What happened to Flight 93?

Semantic issues?

Does it really look like a plane crashed in that ditch?

Yes, causing the 'ditch'.

Can you tell us the date and time that photo was taken? Who took it? What the photographer witnessed as well as what he/she photographed? How many responders and clean up crews had worked there and for how long? How much debris, aircraft remains, soil where removed prior to that photo?
Where did all that evidence go?
 
Did they attack the cockpit, or did they attack the door to the cockpit because you have zero evidence they ever got in. According to the theory you support, hijacking terrorists who have managed to kill, fit and well trained pilots were scared of food cart wielding passengers banging on a door.

Great theory.

you know as repugnant as your crassness on this is, let me explain...

a. pilots were strapped in their seats.
b. there were 2 pilots, 4 hijackers, 30-40 passengers...do the math

jesus h christ what is with you people
 
The Commission Report states explicitly that a passenger yelled out, "Roll it" because that's what was on the transcript. "Let's roll" never appears in the report.



The passenger "counter-attack" and "Let's Roll" are the two most indelible images of Flight 93. If the reality is that the passengers never made it inside the cockpit and Beamer never yelled "Let's roll," you can see why the Bush administration wouldn't exactly publicize this. I've read the report, and I had trouble finding it's brief discussion of the passenger revolt.

This is relevant to an Inside Job discussion because this exaggeration combined with a lack of evidence in the ditch further casts doubt on the official story of Flight 93.

I've heard many people say that they don't believe 9/11 was an inside job but they think the plane was shot down, an unfortunate but necessary act. If this is true than the "crash scene" was certainly faked.

You have no proof beyond your speculation that the passengers did not revolt. We have the transcript, and the public at the Moussaoui trial heard the CVR indicating that the passengers were trying to enter the cockpit. We have numerous phone calls indicating that they were going to rush the cockpit, and we have audible recordings of them doing that.

We have DNA evidence and body parts from the crash site. We have reports indicating that the reminents (or some percentage of them) were found at the crash site. We have witnesses describing the overwhelming smell of jet fuel at the crash site.

WHAT HAVE YOU GOT?????

Now you can be like most of the idiot kids that call themselves truthers, and say "oh it was all faked...the calls, the recordings, the crash site" but that is the easiest, and sleaziest cop out on the planet. It requires no discussion, no thinking, etc..."

Or you can present your evidence supporting your argument...

These last few months your arguments, and what you need as proof, seems to have declined severely.

TAM:)
 
No redibis, it looks like a meteor impact. And all of these were comet impacts :rolleyes:
It must be since I don't see a 100-ton airliner in either of these.
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3249/498c.jpghttp://img139.imageshack.us/img139/1853/cda1.jpg

Now run along, personal incredulity is calling for you :rolleyes:
You don't care anyway, you've been doing this for a few years now... why would I expect you to change after your seeing these for the thousandth time

You must have scared the bird away.
 
We don't assess aircraft crashes based on what they look like to laymen in photographs. That would be ridiculous.

When you need a medical diagnosis or a checkup, do you send a photo of yourself to your doctor and ask him what diseases it looks like you have? If not, why not? It would certainly be easier than meeting the doctor face to face for an actual examination. Is it possible that the examination serves some useful purpose?

Quoted for its awesomeness in pointing out the utter stupidity of RedIbis' argument. :D
 
So far every picture of a plane crash looks a hell of a lot more like a plane crashed there than does the ditch in Shanksville.

A ditch is a long narrow hole dug out of the ground. If anyone reads some negative, disrespectful connotation in that, I'm not responsible for that nonsense.
 
So far every picture of a plane crash looks a hell of a lot more like a plane crashed there than does the ditch in Shanksville.

A ditch is a long narrow hole dug out of the ground. If anyone reads some negative, disrespectful connotation in that, I'm not responsible for that nonsense.

The picture i posted is of Lockerbie.

The crater that you think "looks a hell of a lot more like a plane crashed there" is infact the result of a number of different occurances. Can you figure out what they where?
Let me give you a few pointers:-

Partial aircaft impact
Gas
Investigation
Clean up
Excavation
Picture taken post above
etc etc etc
 
So far every picture of a plane crash looks a hell of a lot more like a plane crashed there than does the ditch in Shanksville.

A ditch is a long narrow hole dug out of the ground. If anyone reads some negative, disrespectful connotation in that, I'm not responsible for that nonsense.

What do you believe happend in Shanksville? What happened to the plane if it didn't crash there?

PS: You won't find another crash site that looks exactly like Shanksville. That's because there is one, and ONLY one, reported case of a pilot deliberately crashing an airliner into the ground at high speed. Given that, it's the height of arrogance to claim that you know what the aftermath of such an event should look like, and that the ONLY real world example doesn't fit.
 
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Red, do you have any evidence that the crater in Shanksville is an artificial 'ditch'?

Red will pause for awhile then come back with the airial photos taken in 1996 supposedly showing the 'ditch' already there. Predictable.
 
The picture i posted is of Lockerbie.

The crater that you think "looks a hell of a lot more like a plane crashed there" is infact the result of a number of different occurances. Can you figure out what they where?
Let me give you a few pointers:-

Partial aircaft impact
Gas
Investigation
Clean up
Excavation
Picture taken post above
etc etc etc

Here's another one from that crash

lockerbie-aerial_451371a.jpg
 
So far every picture of a plane crash looks a hell of a lot more like a plane crashed there than does the ditch in Shanksville.

A ditch is a long narrow hole dug out of the ground. If anyone reads some negative, disrespectful connotation in that, I'm not responsible for that nonsense.
You are disrespectful but you don't have the knowledge to want to gain the knowledge to know better.

93 seconds away from impact and accelerating to impact.
93fdranim.jpg


An aircraft impact at high speed.
impact1.jpg

You have never dug out a pilot buried deep in a crash impact smashed up to a small mass that does not look like a body. You have total lack of knowledge of high speed impacts of aircraft and this ignorance helps drive your delusions and failed ideas on 911.

That is due to your ignorance in aircraft accident investigation. You have no background or experience to realize 93 impact is what a 757 looks like at 600 mph. Your ignorance and lack of experience is massive on 911 and this is another issue you can't grasp as real. Your problem to prove a 600 mph impact of a 757 would not look like 93 impact.
 
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Here's another one from that crash

[qimg]http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a154/perdalis/lockerbie-aerial_451371a.jpg[/qimg]

Yep. Taken from a helicopter and about 5 seconds after the photo i posted.

Still waiting for RedIbis to backpaddle on his earlier observational skills. Remarkable what a sit at home expert can conclude from a photograph.
 
So far every picture of a plane crash looks a hell of a lot more like a plane crashed there than does the ditch in Shanksville.

A ditch is a long narrow hole dug out of the ground. If anyone reads some negative, disrespectful connotation in that, I'm not responsible for that nonsense.

What do you think explains all this evidence and eyewitness accounts?

Some Flight 93 Evidence Updated 5/27/09
http://911links.webs.com/Flight93.htm

[1] DNA for all passangers crew found and identified
[2] The hole
[3] 95% of the airplane recovered in the hole
[4] Black boxes recovered and analyzed
[5] Video of Phanton hitting wall
[6] Lots of Flight 93 links
[7] 1960 Air-to-air collision NYC
[8] Analysis of Flt 93 Balck Boxes
[9] 1,200 investigators and first responders,.
[10] Remains of aircraft in storage.
[11] Papers & light objects found up to 8 miles from the crash
[12] Pictures
[13] Largest peice of Flt 93 was half a ton
[14] Coroner Statement
[15] Flight Data Recorder data and WTC data for Flt 93
[16] THE NORAD RESPONSE TO 9/11 COmplete timing and FAA info
[17] VIDEO: Eyewitnesses to Flt93 crash
[18] Phone calls from Flight 93
[19] Flight 93 Radar track
[20] Crash debris found 8 miles away
[21] Olsen Phone calls discussed
[1] --------------------------------------------------------------
DNA http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011220shanksville1220p2.asp http://preview.tinyurl.com/2fhpe8 Links to forensics and hijacker identification http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/linksto911forensicsaqndvictimidentificat The hijacker's license http://bp0.blogger.com/_rLV-ZuNPwJ4/RzjIqhqANiI/AAAAAAAAAuw/8Ve-LbpabIs/s1600-h/PA00101A.jpg

[2] --------------------------------------------------------------
The Hole: The aircraft impacted at approximately 563 mph (906 km/h), at a 40 degree angle.[26] The impact left a crater about 115 feet (35 m) wide and 10 to 12 feet (about 3.5 m) deep. There were no survivors among the 44 passengers, crew and terrorists (all were killed by the impact or had been previously killed during flight). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_93 http://preview.tinyurl.com/5tvkk
[3] --------------------------------------------------------------
Here's the in the news on 9/24/2001, CNN reports 95% or the aircraft was recovered form that hole including both black boxes. http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/09/24/inv.pennsylvania.site.index.html CNN.com FBI finished with Pennsylvania crash site probe SHANKSVILLE, Pennsylvania (CNN) --The FBI announced Monday that its investigation of the site where a hijacked jet slammed into a field here is complete and that 95 percent of the plane was recovered. The federal investigation into the September 11 terrorist attacks continues. Evidence-gathering was halted Saturday afternoon and the pieces of United Airlines Flight 93 that had been recovered were turned over Sunday to the airline, with the exception of the flight data recorder and the voice recorder, which are being held and analyzed by the FBI, according to FBI agent Bill Crowley. Crowley said the biggest piece of the plane that was recovered was a 6-by-7-foot piece of the fuselage skin, including about four windows. The heaviest piece, Crowley said, was part of an engine fan, weighing about 1,000 pounds. Flight 93 was one of four jets hijacked Sept. 11. Authorities believe the flight, which originated in Newark, New Jersey, and had been destined for San Francisco, was headed for the nation's capital, where the hijackers may have intended to slam it into the White House or the Capitol. Attorney General John Ashcroft and FBI Director Robert Mueller have praised the passengers of that flight, saying it appears their actions in trying to regain control of the aircraft averted a greater tragedy. People who spoke by phone with passengers after the plane was hijacked say that after the passengers found out about the earlier World Trade Center attack, they decided to try to overpower the hijackers. And officials familiar with the flight's cockpit voice recorder say it shows there was a "definite struggle," which they described as desperate and wild, between hijackers and some of the passengers. All 44 people on board the flight were killed when it slammed into the ground.
[4] --------------------------------------------------------------
Black boxes recovered and analyzed http://www.ntsb.gov/info/autopilot_AA77_UA93_study.pdf Black boxes recovered and analyzed http://www.ntsb.gov/info/autopilot_AA77_UA93_study.pdf Of the airliner parts, the pieces that investigators judged most significant were the plane's cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder, both unearthed within 3 1/2 days of the crash. The voice recording that remained is being analyzed for clues to confirm the identities of the four hijackers who seized the Newark-to-San Francisco flight before it crashed. http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010925scene0925p2.asp
[5] --------------------------------------------------------------
Video of Phanton hitting wall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--_RGM4Abv8
[6] --------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of Flight 93 links
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93shanksvillesummaryofevidence,man
[7] --------------------------------------------------------------
Example Air-to-air collision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_New_York_air_disaster
[8] --------------------------------------------------------------
Black boxes recovered and analyzed http://www.ntsb.gov/info/autopilot_AA77_UA93_study.pdf Discussed : http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=102924
[9] --------------------------------------------------------------
1,200 investigators and first responders,. http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/flight93shanksvillesummaryofevidence,man
[10] --------------------------------------------------------------
Remains of aircraft in storage. Since it had no more use for it, the FBI turned the airliner debris -- but not the data and voice recorders -- over to United Airlines yesterday. Asked what United will do with the debris, airline spokeswoman Whitney Staley said, "I don't think a decision has been made ... but we're not commenting." http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010925scene0925p2.asp "With the recovery Friday night of the cockpit voice recorder from United Flight 93, workers at the crash site have shifted their focus to a long, arduous search for what remains of the jet and its victims. http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010916otherjetnat5p5.asp
[11] --------------------------------------------------------------
Debris from the crash has been found up to 8 miles from the crash site, but searchers are concentrating on the crater where most of the remains are located. Papers and other light objects were carried aloft by the explosion after impact of the plane and they were transported by a nine-knot wind. http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010916otherjetnat5p5.asp
[12] --------------------------------------------------------------
Pictures http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200061.html http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200062.html Live news coverage showing debris http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeWi0JpI__M The hijacker's license http://bp0.blogger.com/_rLV-ZuNPwJ4/RzjIqhqANiI/AAAAAAAAAuw/8Ve-LbpabIs/s1600-h/PA00101A.jpg
[13] --------------------------------------------------------------
FBI spokesman Bill Crowley said that the largest piece
of plane recovered was a shred of fuselage skin that
covered four windows -- a piece seven feet long
from a jetliner that was 155 feet long. The
heaviest piece, he said, was a half-ton section
of engine fan.

http://www.post-gazette.com/headlines/20010925scene0925p2.asp
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...node=&contentId=A56110-2002May8&notFound=true
[14] --------------------------------------------------------------
Once he was able to absorb the scene, Miller says, "I stopped being coroner after about 20 minutes, because there were no bodies there. It became like a giant funeral service." As a funeral director, Miller says, he is honored and humbled to preside over what has become essentially an immense cemetery stretching far into the scenic wooded mountain ridge. He considers it the final resting place of 40 national heroes. He saw dust, not bodies.
[15] --------------------------------------------------------------
Flight Data Recorder data and WTC data for Flt 93 http://www.ntsb.gov/info/foia_fri.htm
[16] --------------------------------------------------------------
THE NORAD RESPONSE TO 9/11 Compiled by Andrew Burfield http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2164577#post2164577
[17] --------------------------------------------------------------
VIDEO: Eyewitnesses to Flt93 crash (0:1:15) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxsmhnZeM6w
[18] --------------------------------------------------------------
Phone calls from Flight 93 9/11 Commission folder entitled "Flight 93 Calls - General". http://911myths.com/index.php/Image:Team7_Box12_93Calls_General.2.pdf
[19] --------------------------------------------------------------
Flight 93 Radar track http://i286.photobucket.com/albums/ll116/tjkb/93RadarTrack.jpg
[20] --------------------------------------------------------------
Crash debris found 8 miles away
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_12967.html
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_47536.html
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/s_12942.html
[21] --------------------------------------------------------------
Olsen Phone calls discussed
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=4687535#post4687535
 
I'd just like to point out that you've all let RedIbis successfully take control of this thread...
 
What do you think explains all this evidence and eyewitness accounts?

Some Flight 93 Evidence Updated 5/27/09
http://911links.webs.com/Flight93.htm

[1] DNA for all passangers crew found and identified
[2] The hole
[3] 95% of the airplane recovered in the hole
[4] Black boxes recovered and analyzed
[5] Video of Phanton hitting wall
[6] Lots of Flight 93 links
[7] 1960 Air-to-air collision NYC
[8] Analysis of Flt 93 Balck Boxes
[9] 1,200 investigators and first responders,.
[10] Remains of aircraft in storage.
[11] Papers & light objects found up to 8 miles from the crash
[12] Pictures
[13] Largest peice of Flt 93 was half a ton
[14] Coroner Statement
[15] Flight Data Recorder data and WTC data for Flt 93
[16] THE NORAD RESPONSE TO 9/11 COmplete timing and FAA info
[17] VIDEO: Eyewitnesses to Flt93 crash
[18] Phone calls from Flight 93
[19] Flight 93 Radar track
[20] Crash debris found 8 miles away
[21] Olsen Phone calls discussed
--------------------------------------------------------

BigAL. This is complete, persuasive, top notch factual research, and the conclusion is inescapable.

To a pathologically delusional mind this evidence has no rational impact.

They're ill Al
 
--------------------------------------------------------

BigAL. This is complete, persuasive, top notch factual research, and the conclusion is inescapable.

To a pathologically delusional mind this evidence has no rational impact.

They're ill Al

Thank you. Much of it came from 16 months of JREF. I've been on Usenet since ~1985 and when the Truth Movement k00ks showed up en-mass I developed this format as a blunderbuss response to their cherrypicking and goalpost-moving tactics. I came late to JREF, found via googling to nail down some citation.

As far as curing the ill, I have no expectation of miracles. Since Usenet is 99% or 99.999% lurkers, most of whom know that the Twoofers are nuts but don't have the citations, I put this out for them.

I've seen text from my lists show up in the posts of others who joined the good fight. That makes my effort feel worth it.
 

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