• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

"What Greenpeace is doing is damaging and is anti-science"

But their parents might have more, because one of their children was blinded.

And again, the numbers of people harmed by vitamin A deficiency is much larger than the number who are fully blinded.

And of course you have the neighbours of the families with afflicted individuals. Even if their children are healthy they may feel compelled to have more, 'just in case'. As you say having fitter and more productive adults, who are apt to live longer, is likely to reduce pressure for larger families.

There is also the question of whether it's moral to withhold the Golden Rice from people just to pander to some bunch of anti-GMO hysterics in the west. If Greenpeace want to have an honest debate about population then let them do so, instead of hiding behind scaremongering nonsense.
 
And yeah there absolutely needs to be more talk about how the human population is already too large.
 
In other words, we should not increase our standard of living.

I'm not saying that. I am saying that it starts becoming Sisyphean at a certain point, or actually not even Sisyphean because that hill could support rolling the boulder back up for eternity whereas we live on a limited planet.
 
Surface "improvements" that will in the long run increase the squalor of this planet aren't really improvements to one's standard of living incidentally. At least not lasting ones.
 
Improvements to one's standard of living is what causes people to have fewer children.
 
A few comments. If more children in poor countries survived then that would be one reason for having fewer children. Then educate the WOMEN and give them access to reliable birth control and the population increase will slowly come under control.

Organisations will stop opposing GMO when enough people know that they are not so dangerous and they offer some benefits. Then either the organisations will be laughed out of existence or they will change their policies.
 
A few comments. If more children in poor countries survived then that would be one reason for having fewer children. Then educate the WOMEN and give them access to reliable birth control and the population increase will slowly come under control.
That's not a "would". This has been happening in most of Third World, exception being Subsaharan Africa.
Organisations will stop opposing GMO when enough people know that they are not so dangerous and they offer some benefits. Then either the organisations will be laughed out of existence or they will change their policies.
I find your faith in human rationality most touching.
 
Improvements to one's standard of living is what causes people to have fewer children.

The problem is that they then compensate and then some with individual consumption.

An individual American with no children can easily out-consume a typical sizable Afghan family.
 
Ziggurat said:
Vitamin A deficiency kills a lot of people, but it hurts orders of magnitude more.
Non-GMO food causes Vitamin A deficiency!

Garrison said:
There is also the question of whether it's moral to withhold the Golden Rice from people
Eating non-GMO food is immoral!

It's a classic, even literal, example of people biting the hand that feeds them.
Nobody grows GMO's around here, yet Vitamin A deficiency doesn't seem to be problem. Why would that be? It's because where I live we have more to eat than just rice.

Golden Rice: Controversy
Vandana Shiva, an Indian anti-GMO activist, argued the problem was not the plant per se, but potential problems with poverty and loss of biodiversity. Shiva claimed these problems could be amplified by the corporate control of agriculture. By focusing on a narrow problem (vitamin A deficiency), Shiva argued, golden rice proponents were obscuring the limited availability of diverse and nutritionally adequate food... Keith West of Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health has stated that foodstuffs containing vitamin A are often unavailable, only available at certain seasons, or too expensive for poor families in underdeveloped countries.

A simple solution can fix a simple problem - but complex problems are usually harder to solve. The real causes of vitamin A deficiency in third world countries are cultural and political - and that won't go away by planting Golden rice. Scientists may understand the science, but that doesn't mean they understand the problem.

eerok said:
Science is the single human activity that can claim a degree of objectivity,
Objective facts, but chosen subjectively. scientists don't usually study a field just to broaden our knowledge - they choose areas that have possibilities. Things to make the world a better place, or (in reality) to pique their personal curiosity and enhance their wealth and reputation.

So some scientists hacked an organism to make it produce more vitamin A. Cool! And they think their invention could fix vitamin A deficiency. Well done! But now some westerners are insisting that third World countries change to it whether they want to or not. Why?

Distribution
Monsanto Company was one of the first companies to grant free licences.

The cutoff between humanitarian and commercial use was set at US$10,000. Therefore, as long as a farmer or subsequent user of golden rice genetics does not make more than $10,000 per year, no royalties need to be paid. In addition, farmers are permitted to keep and replant seed.
Monsanto owns your rice, but you can grow it for free so long as you stay poor... You can see where this is going. First they get us hooked on 'free' GMO's. Then, when we can't survive without it...

This isn't about the science, it's about how we use it. History has shown that adoption of a new technology often has unintended consequences...

400 years ago we were running out of wood. Not to worry, we found something that works better - coal! That lead to the invention of the steam engine, and pollution on a massive scale. 200 years later chemists figured out how to make an even more potent fuel - petroleum. Surely there's nothing that science can't make better! What could possibly go wrong?

Global warming
Anticipated effects include warming global temperature, rising sea levels, changing precipitation, and expansion of deserts in the subtropics.[21] Warming is expected to be greater over land than over the oceans and greatest in the Arctic, with the continuing retreat of glaciers, permafrost and sea ice. Other likely changes include more frequent extreme weather events including heat waves, droughts, heavy rainfall with floods and heavy snowfall;[22] ocean acidification; and species extinctions due to shifting temperature regimes. Effects significant to humans include the threat to food security from decreasing crop yields and the abandonment of populated areas due to rising sea levels.[23][24] Because the climate system has a large "inertia" and CO2 will stay in the atmosphere for a long time, many of these effects will not only exist for decades or centuries, but will persist for tens of thousands of years.


Like all science, genetics is morally neutral. But what we choose to do with it isn't. GMO has enormous potential, but nobody can say that it is or isn't safe - that depends on what we make with it. A particular organism can pass or fail whatever tests we apply to it, but that tells us nothing about GMO in general. 400 years ago nobody thought we would be facing catastrophic climate change. Today, nobody has any idea what the consequences of widespread GMO use will be.

Many people are scared of GMO because of its enormous potential - to screw up. And if our past record is anything to go by, they have every right to be scared.
 
That point isn't entirely lacking.

That being said, a lot of the possible "screw-ups" due to biotechnology really aren't screw-ups at all. (E.g. this will result in more rational people, oh noes!)
 
Last edited:
It's not just raw number of people, but we need to weight them by their level of consumption? WHOA that conflicts with my feel-good narrative
 
I'll bet those blind folks have fewer children on average (especially if male)

There is a strong correlation between falling infant mortality and falling birth rates: when their children are more likely to survive people tend to have fewer children. Thus rising mortality actually increases population growth (at least up to a point, obviously at some point people having more children can't compensate for those rises in mortality, but now we're talking about a plague or something).

Myth3Info1_Brazil_Child_Mortality_MASTEREN_0122.jpg
 
I'm not saying that. I am saying that it starts becoming Sisyphean at a certain point, or actually not even Sisyphean because that hill could support rolling the boulder back up for eternity whereas we live on a limited planet.

People's lives really are better off, in measurable ways, due to economic growth and technological progress. That's not Sisyphean.

It's certainly not the most efficient possible process: there are many gains in wealth and power that are made that don't make positive impacts on human happiness, but that certainly doesn't suggest that none do.
 
People's lives really are better off, in measurable ways, due to economic growth and technological progress. That's not Sisyphean.

It's certainly not the most efficient possible process: there are many gains in wealth and power that are made that don't make positive impacts on human happiness, but that certainly doesn't suggest that none do.

I think that industry and technology are highly desirable but we need a much smaller population corresponding to them. On a related note:

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...ight-new-research-shows-were-nearing-collapse
 
Last edited:
Could you take your off-topic ramblings elsewhere please.

Right now I'm talking about how overpopulation is ruinous to the planet and it's easy to see how I got there from an OP about Greenpeace and the good things they claim to be doing for the planet. Unless what counts as "on-topic" is only that which is very narrowly related to the OP—not like any real-life conversation ever goes on tangents, right?—then no I don't consider what I'm talking about "off-topic ramblings". If you want the mods to split my posts about how overpopulation sucks and therefore how Greenpeace are somehow misguided into some other thread that's fine but otherwise I'm not going anywhere.

And no I am not a conspiracy theorist about Monsanto or GMOs if that's who you're referring to.
 

Back
Top Bottom