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What Gravity Is

In 2D M is the most probable direction an atom will move in
In 3D this direction is defined by M squared
G is the density of the particles
The distance travelled is defined by r in 2D
In 3D this distance is defined b r squared
This defines gravity

Time is the movement of the grid
The minimum slice of time in 2D is c
In 3D this is defined by c squared
Energy is a wave in the grid
This wave is defined by m the direction of the wave and a the speed of the wave

All else follows
 
In 2D M is the most probable direction an atom will move in
In 3D this direction is defined by M squared
G is the density of the particles
The distance travelled is defined by r in 2D
In 3D this distance is defined b r squared
This defines gravity

Time is the movement of the grid
The minimum slice of time in 2D is c
In 3D this is defined by c squared
Energy is a wave in the grid
This wave is defined by m the direction of the wave and a the speed of the wave

All else follows
All else does not follow.
M is mass and that is always M.
In 3D r is the distance travelled as it is in 1D and 2D. G is the gravitational constant not the density of the particles which is a variable according to your model (they move!).
Time is nothing to do with the grid.
And now you state that energy has nothing to do with mass and is localized in some kind of wave. What about thermal energy? What about kinetic energy?

This sounds like desperate hand-waving to try to rescue the model.
 
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G is the density of the particles

G or the Gravitational constant has the fundamental (force, space & time) units of Meter4 Newton-1 Second-4. Density has the fundamental units of Newton Second2 Meter-4. You have gone from just lacking time to lacking time squared and taking the reciprocal.
 
I have admitted I had this round the wrong way in a post above– the particles get less dense as you get closer to a mass caused by the particles being pushed out of the way by the mass. Therefore as you get closer to a mass there are fewer particles to obstruct you hence movement is easier and the closer you get to the object the further apart the particles are making travel easier.


Forgive me for jumping into the middle of things here, but I have a quastion:

How does the model account for the increased acceleration of an object as it approaches a large mass?
You say travel gets easier, but this implies less deceleration due to less resistance (less particles). It does not imply a force causeing acceleration.
Conversly, how does this account for the decreased deceleration as an object gets further away from a mass?

You seem to be modelling gravity as a resistive, non-restorative force, like kinetic friction.
In contrast consider something like a spring, wher ethe force is always trying to return to an equilibrium point (springs are also dependant on distance from equilibrium).
Gravity is more akin to the. A pendulum, for example, operates on this principle. In the absence of friction, a mass on a spring (assume horizontal motion so gravity can be neglected) will oscillate back and forth, just like a pendulum swinging.






Two balls of iron and lead with the same number of atoms and constructed to have the same density. These will push the grid particles the same. They will have the same gravitational force applied to them according to your model. But they will have different masses and we will actually measure different forces.


You don't escape, either:

[nitpick]
If they are the same size, and constructed to be the same density, how will the masses be different?
[/nitpick]

Perhaps you mean "Two balls of iron and lead with the same number of atoms and constructed to have the same diameter."

;)
 
What would hold the 3d grid balls in place or out of place for that matter; if it is matter or if it matters at all!
 
Loss Leader, you did have a point. It's mindbogglingly unlikely that a non-physicist could develop a useful descriptive model of gravity that generations of theoretical physicists have missed (and it does rather trivialise physics to suggest it). You could have said this in a friendly way (having pointed out some of the logic and physics errors - assuming you're capable of doing so).


I do not have the capability of doing so. I know next to nothing about physics. However, you are right that my comments were not phrased as constructively or helpfully as they could have been. My point, which you helped clarify, is that it is a necessary first step in coming up with any useful theory that it be able to account for all observable phenomena. And learning all of the obsevable phenomena in the area of physics necessarily requires a great, great deal of hard work and (formal or informal) education.

I would suggest anyone with a pet theory spend a long time with the textbooks before shoving it into the spotlight for its debut.
 
Also: Why did you skip 1D? Shouldn't your "logic" be: M and r in 1D becomes M cubed and r cubed in 3D?

0 is self explanatory, nothing exists
1 is just a particle so m and r are undefined
2 is a grid of squares so most probable direction is defined by the ratio of m and r
3 is a grid of cubes containing matter– the most probable direction a piece of matter will move in is defined by m1 multiplied by m2 which defines the area in which the particle can move to. A change in distance r equates to a change in area therefore the ratio is defined by r squared. The sum of things that are influencing the grid is defined by G.
4 Is a grid of cubes that contains matter where the grid is expanding – the relationship between m and r is now a cube relationship as the most probable direction is related to a volume

From other thread which I notice you have seen
 
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What would hold the 3d grid balls in place or out of place for that matter; if it is matter or if it matters at all!

The particles are all repelling each other - in a volume this will create a grid of cubes if the particles repel each other equally.

I'm pretty sure this is right - as I have said I'm translating a picture in my head.
 
You seem to be modelling gravity as a resistive, non-restorative force, like kinetic friction.
In contrast consider something like a spring, wher ethe force is always trying to return to an equilibrium point (springs are also dependant on distance from equilibrium).
Gravity is more akin to the. A pendulum, for example, operates on this principle. In the absence of friction, a mass on a spring (assume horizontal motion so gravity can be neglected) will oscillate back and forth, just like a pendulum swinging.

Now you're getting it - it is a spring, the effect of the particles repelling each other creates a spring, the particles can only get so close. But in 3D.

Consider the path of a piece of matter - in 2D start from a point on the shortest side of the grid the matter will end up somewhere along the line of the longest side of the Grid. In 3D the point will end up somewhere in an area. In 2D it's m over r which defines where a point will end up (m the horizontal movement and r is vertical movement), in 3D its m squared (the area) over r (distance proportional to an area changing hence r squared).

It's all about where matter is likely to be going.
 
This model is nonsense.
Why should we replace a single attractive gravitational force that works and has been experimentally confirmed with:
  • A model that only shows "where matter is likely to be going"?
  • A model with 2 forces - one between the grid particles and another between masses and the grid particles.
  • A model that predicts that mases at rest will not attract or maybe even repel each other.
  • A model that for some reason skips 1D for the only reason that you want things to be squared rather then cubed.
  • A model that predicts the gravitation force is dependant on the volume that a mass occupies (or to be more exact the volume that the atoms of the mass occupies).
 
This model is nonsense.
Why should we replace a single attractive gravitational force that works and has been experimentally confirmed with:

It’s not a replacement.

  • A model that only shows "where matter is likely to be going"?
  • A model with 2 forces - one between the grid particles and another between masses and the grid particles.
  • A model that predicts that mases at rest will not attract or maybe even repel each other.
  • A model that for some reason skips 1D for the only reason that you want things to be squared rather then cubed.
  • A model that predicts the gravitation force is dependant on the volume that a mass occupies (or to be more exact the volume that the atoms of the mass occupies).

  • Because that’s what the measurement G fundamentally is – it’s the likely position a piece of matter will move to. Put a piece of matter above the earth and it will tend towards the Earth. Why? Well the largest area for the matter to move to is in the direction of the Earth as this is where the Grid is distorted the most. More mass bigger distortion of the Grid.
  • No just one the repelling of the particles of the Grid.
  • No a mass at rest will tend towards the largest areas of the grid – so a mass on it’s own in the Grid will not move anywhere as, effectively, the Grid is uniform. Add another mass and the Grid is distorted, the larger the mass the more the Grid is distorted hence the two masses will move towards each other. The larger mass moves slower as it has more particles to ‘push’ past.
  • No in D = 1 we have just a solitary gravity particle, the values m and r are meaningless as the particle has nowhere to go. Remember the equation? In 1D G is nothing as there is no matter, m is to the power 0 and r is to the power of 0 which makes 1 over 1. Which is 1.
  • Don’t think of volume just think of individual piece of matter. Where is that piece of matter likely to go? Towards the bigger gaps in the Grid. Why does it move? Because the Grid is expanding. How to stop things moving and therefore stop time? Stop the Grid expanding.
 
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Now you're getting it - it is a spring, the effect of the particles repelling each other creates a spring, the particles can only get so close. But in 3D.

Consider the path of a piece of matter - in 2D start from a point on the shortest side of the grid the matter will end up somewhere along the line of the longest side of the Grid. In 3D the point will end up somewhere in an area. In 2D it's m over r which defines where a point will end up (m the horizontal movement and r is vertical movement), in 3D its m squared (the area) over r (distance proportional to an area changing hence r squared).

It's all about where matter is likely to be going.



What? :confused:


How does the model account for the increased acceleration of an object as it approaches a large mass?
You say travel gets easier, but this implies less deceleration due to less resistance (less particles). It does not imply a force causeing acceleration.
Conversly, how does this account for the decreased deceleration as an object gets further away from a mass?
 
The particles are all repelling each other - in a volume this will create a grid of cubes if the particles repel each other equally.

I'm pretty sure this is right - as I have said I'm translating a picture in my head.

How does the repulsive force vary with distance? Why doesn't this grid expand unbounded? Why cubic packing? (Crystals have several different packing structure, btw).
 
It’s not a replacement.
Then what is it? Does it have anything to do with gravity?

  • Because that’s what the measurement G fundamentally is – it’s the likely position a piece of matter will move to. Put a piece of matter above the earth and it will tend towards the Earth. Why? Well the largest area for the matter to move to is in the direction of the Earth as this is where the Grid is distorted the most. More mass bigger distortion of the Grid.
  • No just one the repelling of the particles of the Grid.
  • No a mass at rest will tend towards the largest areas of the grid – so a mass on it’s own in the Grid will not move anywhere as, effectively, the Grid is uniform. Add another mass and the Grid is distorted, the larger the mass the more the Grid is distorted hence the two masses will move towards each other. The larger mass moves slower as it has more particles to ‘push’ past.
  • No in D = 1 we have just a solitary gravity particle, the values m and r are meaningless as the particle has nowhere to go. Remember the equation? In 1D G is nothing as there is no matter, m is to the power 0 and r is to the power of 0 which makes 1 over 1. Which is 1.
  • Don’t think of volume just think of individual piece of matter. Where is that piece of matter likely to go? Towards the bigger gaps in the Grid. Why does it move? Because the Grid is expanding. How to stop things moving and therefore stop time? Stop the Grid expanding.

The gravitational constant G is a constant and nothing to do with position. I suggest that you use a different notation , e.g. <x> for the expectation value if x (the likely position of the mass).

If there no force between the masses and the grid particles then there is no force. The masses will not be effected by the grid particles. So your theory is only about the grid ant nothing else.

A mass at rest is at rest. It does not move. That is what at rest means.

D = 1 is a line. There is a line of particles. There is matter. So by your logic the quantities are themsleves. D = 2 is a plane There is matter. So by your logic the quantities are squared. D = 3 is a volume. There is matter. So by your logic the quantities are cubed.

An individual piece of matter can go anywhere. You state that the grid had only one force: "just one the repelling of the particles of the Grid". What is causing the matter to go towrds the larger gaps in the grid. Why are there larger gaps in some places and smaller in others? Why is the grid expanding? Why is this expansion not uniform? What has time got to do with it?
 
It is quite possible to show martu, using simple school-level physics that he can understand, that his model doesn't work. It's not necessary to invoke quantum physics or general relativity (though both are relevant). I'll just answer a couple of points first (else I'll never get round to posting a reply).


I have admitted I had this round the wrong way in a post above– the particles get less dense as you get closer to a mass caused by the particles being pushed out of the way by the mass. Therefore as you get closer to a mass there are fewer particles to obstruct you hence movement is easier and the closer you get to the object the further apart the particles are making travel easier.
In a single stroke you have defeated the purpose of your model – a simple physical picture of the basis of gravity. It's just about possible to conceive of the array of gravitational particles becoming more dense in the region of a mass because its presence has displaced some of them, but how could it possibly cause the array to become less dense? Or are you suggesting that the mass's effects are greater at a distance?!

Next, exactly how do the gravitational particles affect the motion of objects? Initially you spoke of it as an obstructive effect – your physical picture was that the object has to push the particles aside. As I pointed out, this would mean that gravity, however weak, and regardless of direction, is always obstructive – everything, everywhere and always, would decelerate, never accelerate.

You then seemed to change the story by implying that objects are accelerated from regions of high particle density to low density (why should they be?). So particle density is inversely correlated with gravitational attraction (how?). Immediately the physical 'explanation' is lost – your gravity is a Newtonian field, and the particles are an unnecessary addition. Your model is now more complicated than either Newtonian gravity or general relativity (admittedly they don't provide a physical 'mechanism', but neither does your model now).


The gravity particles spring back because, when they move, they are pushed towards other gravity particles which repel them pushing them back. Think of just two particles with a spring between them – it will contract if we move one towards the other but eventually it will be pushed back by the spring. Now make this 3D….
The spring analogy doesn't work for a repulsive force, because (obviously) springs resist being stretched as well as being compressed. (You might want to ponder this, as it destroys your model at a stroke – at least as a simple picture.) If the force between the gravitational particles is truly repulsive then what would prevent them from continuing to move apart after being 'pushed' by an object? What do you think would cause the further ones (at the edge of the universe?) to bunch up? Is the universe confined in a container? (you are, in effect, introducing this as an arbitrary assumption). Pursuing this thought, how could an array of particles (in an unconfined universe), that experience only a repulsive force between them, remain stable, regardless of the presence of matter?

By the way, if you could rework your model into a 'spring' analogy then you would introduce another serious problem – the particle array would oscillate, which one would expect to cause observable effects on the motion of objects through it.


Coming up – the really fatal objection to the model:
In order to explain any interaction between particles of matter and the 'gravitational particles' you need to postulate a gravitational force – the very thing you are trying to explain!

Back to the drawing board! :D
 
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What? :confused:


How does the model account for the increased acceleration of an object as it approaches a large mass?
You say travel gets easier, but this implies less deceleration due to less resistance (less particles). It does not imply a force causeing acceleration.
Conversly, how does this account for the decreased deceleration as an object gets further away from a mass?

Because as you get closer to a mass the grid is distorted more - the more the grid is distorted the further you go in a slice if time. Going further in a slice of time is fundamentally what acceleration is.

As you get further away from a mass the grid is distorted less therefore you travel a shorter distance in a slice of time.

This is easier in 2D where the Grid can be considered this way. With no mass we have a square and therefore no direction (m is equal to r) Add two masses that influence each other. Now think of the grid as an isosceles trapezoid with the heavier mass below and the lighter mass above, the height is r and m is effectively our direction. You can consider the direction of movement as being represented by the line at the base of the trapezoid. So some matter directly between the centres of mass of two stationary objects will move towards the larger mass.

This is also why you feel gravity when you accelerate - You are ‘pushing’ past the particles, the faster you go the more particles you have to push past.
 
Coming up – the really fatal objection to the model:
In order to explain any interaction between particles of matter and the 'gravitational particles' you need to postulate a gravitational force – the very thing you are trying to explain!

Back to the drawing board! :D

No the Gravitational force is merely the likely direction a particle will move in. This is defined by the relationships between G m and r.
 
Because as you get closer to a mass the grid is distorted more - the more the grid is distorted the further you go in a slice if time. Going further in a slice of time is fundamentally what acceleration is.

As you get further away from a mass the grid is distorted less therefore you travel a shorter distance in a slice of time.

This is easier in 2D where the Grid can be considered this way. With no mass we have a square and therefore no direction (m is equal to r) Add two masses that influence each other. Now think of the grid as an isosceles trapezoid with the heavier mass below and the lighter mass above, the height is r and m is effectively our direction. You can consider the direction of movement as being represented by the line at the base of the trapezoid. So some matter directly between the centres of mass of two stationary objects will move towards the larger mass.

This is also why you feel gravity when you accelerate - You are ‘pushing’ past the particles, the faster you go the more particles you have to push past.

What distorts the grid? You stated that there is only the force between the grid particles. There is no force between the mass and the gird according to you.

Also m is never equal to r. 'm' is a mass. 'r' is a distance. A mass is never equal to a distance. How many pounds are there in a light year?
Or do you mean x and y (directions in 2D).
 

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