What does "Zionist" mean anyway?

Just like anyone who is critical of Israel is an anti-semite, right?

No. But someone who tries to poison the well by throwing around the term "Zionist" instead of actually offering up genuine points critical of the state of Israel is, in my opinion, an antisemite, yes.

Having said that in my experience people with rational and reasoned opinions regarding Palestine-Israel, established through fact, seem few and far between (and that goes for either side of the argument). I don't know what it is about that bit of dirt but it seems to turn even the most reasoned educated westerners into rabid bigots.
 
the only ones that i see bringing up Israel and or judaism on this forum is you debunkers.

There's already a thread about that topic. News flash, this subforum is not the entire world.


and you seem not even informed about Israel / Palestina


You have no idea what I know about Palestine-Israel. I bet you don't even know what side of the "argument" I am on. And no, I'm not going to discuss it here. This isn't the politics subforum.
 
"Zionist" is a word used by Antisemites who want to conceal their antisemitism. It is probably most accurately translated as "filthy Jew" as simply "Jew" doesn't express the blatant racism and bigotry inherent in the way the word is used.

On this note, anyone ever seen this video before? Is it a parody?


sounds very well informed. indeed.......
 
ah i se, zionism has nothing to do with Israel - Palesina....
 
Counterpunch is probably a good place to look for a critical examination.


Do you mean the same Counterpunch for which Michael Neumann is a writer?

Michael Neumann said:
Sometimes it is gentile hangers-on, whose ethos if not their identity aspires to Jewishness, who take on this task. Not to be utterly risqué, they then hasten to remind us that antisemitism is nevertheless to be taken very seriously. That Israel, backed by a pronounced majority of Jews, happens to be waging a race war against the Palestinians is all the more reason we should be on our guard. Who knows? it might possibly stir up some resentment!

I take a different view. I think we should almost never take antisemitism seriously, and maybe we should have some fun with it. I think it is particularly unimportant to the Israel-Palestine conflict, except perhaps as a diversion from the real issues. I will argue for the truth of these claims; I also defend their propriety. I don't think making them is on a par with pulling the wings off flies.

http://www.counterpunch.org/neumann0604.html

Michael Neumann said:
[A] general remark that may help you to understand my attitudes[:] My sole concern is indeed to help the Palestinians, and I try to play for keeps. I am not interested in the truth, or justice, or understanding, or anything else, except so far as it serves that purpose. This means, among other things, that if talking about Jewish power doesn't fit my strategy, I won't talk about it. And, implausible as it may sound to you, I believe I can do *much* more damage by staying entirely away from such issues.

http://www.jewishtribalreview.org/neumann2.htm

Michael Neumann said:
If an effective strategy means that some truths about the Jews don't come to light, I don't care. If an effective strategy means encouraging reasonable antisemitism, or reasonable hostility to Jews, I also don't care. If it means encouraging vicious racist antisemitism, or the destruction of the state of Israel, I still don't care. This is not to say there isn't plenty of room for legitimate disagreement about whether a direct attack on the Jewish lobby and Jewish influence generally is tactically sound or not: we disagree on this, and the issues are too complex to argue here and now. I understand that you may suspect I rationalize here; all I can say is I disagree.

http://www.jewishtribalreview.org/neumann2.htm


I’m afraid that I’m going to have to remain sceptical of your assessment.
 
Do you mean the same Counterpunch for which Michael Neumann is a writer?
...
I’m afraid that I’m going to have to remain sceptical of your assessment.

Yes, the same.

I know he's controversial. Let's be fair - the first quote isn't damning in context, and the second two are from private emails.

If the substance of your case is that the article can't make sense, because another person who writes for the organisation writes controversial emails, then you may keep your scepticism.
 
true zionists can be traced to back to the zealot tribe. back in the times of the tribes of israel.

You have the Zealots all wrong. Here is a more accurate description of them:

The heart and soul of the Protoss military are the fierce Zealots who have sworn their lives to the defense of Aiur. Through the path of the Khala, they learn to hone their innate battle rage to a fine edge. The power suits worn by Zealots enhance and channel their already formidable Psionic abilities, allowing them to form a protective shield around themselves and project massive energy blades from their forearms. Even a handful of these dedicated warriors can easily control an entire colony of other, lesser species, as they are capable of tearing through armored structures and vehicles alike.

From here. http://www.battle.net/scc/protoss/units/zealot.shtml
 
Let's be fair - the second two [quotes] are from private emails.


From private emails they might be. But unless we have any reason to think that what he says in private emails isn’t actually what he thinks, then I would suggest that the point still stands.
 
Counterpunch is probably a good place to look for a critical examination.
Do you mean the same Counterpunch for which Michael Neumann is a writer?
If the substance of your case is that the article can't make sense, because another person who writes for the organisation writes controversial emails, then you may keep your scepticism.


Well, no, that isn’t the argument that I’m making. Rather, I’m saying that Counterpunch features articles on Jews written by a quasi-anti-Semite who has readily admitted to not being terribly interested in truth or justice if the result is favourable to the Palestinian cause, even if that result also foments violent anti-Semitism. (Incidentally, I could also provide a further example or two from other Counterpunch writers.) Therefore, when it comes to the issue of Zionism, Counterpunch all but certainly is not “a good place to look for a critical examination”.
 
Last edited:
There is a text document apparently written by him http://members.tripod.com/~mneumann/cjctripo.txt

I am the first to admit, and regret, the disturbing and intemperate
language of the paragraph, but in context its meaning is not
alarming. My correspondent has reproached me for showing no
interest in further investigations into Jewish power. Having
failed to demonstrate that Jews control America, he nevertheless
wants me to endorse open-ended, unsystematic investigations into
Jewish ownership. He wants me, that is, to help him dig up dirt on
the Jews, in the guise of pursuing The Truth.

In this context, it could hardly be clearer that my reply concerns
my political writing, not my academic work. My political writing
has a political, not an academic purpose; it is to help the
Palestinians. For reasons detailed in the "Jewish power' article
under discussion, I believe that the myth of Jewish control of
America - an antisemitic myth - harms and discredits the Palestinian
cause. So I say that, even if it is true that Jews own this or that
or the other thing, I am not *interested* in such truths.

...

What then of the statement: "If it means encouraging vicious,
racist anti-Semitism, or the destruction of the state of Israel, I
still don't care"?

In the first place, as the preceding statements make clear, I am
stressing the importance of the Palestinian cause by considering
extreme possibilities. I first say that "if talking about Jewish
power doesn't fit my strategy, I won't talk about it." In other
words, I first say that I will not uncover truths detrimental to the
Jewish people if that doesn't help the Palestinians. This hardly
sounds like the project of an antisemite.

In the second place, the statement is neither antisemitic, nor does
it encourage antisemitism. It raises a remote possibility, and
says that, should what I do - my writing - encourage antisemitism,
that will not deter me. As I said in my letter to the National
Post: "I will not self-censor my writings because they may be
misused by antisemites, and it is only in this very particular and
limited sense that I 'don't care' about encouraging antisemitism.
Antisemites misuse all sorts of materials, includin g the statements
of committed Zionists and of Mahatma Gandhi. It would be futile and
impossible for me to tailor my writings to avoid such misuse." The
notion that I would even contemplate deliberately cultivating
antisemitism is absurd, not only because my family has been
decimated by (Nazi) antisemites, but also because I have argued, at
length, that Zionists manipulate antisemitism to their own purposes.

It sounds a lot to me like he was in a conversation with some deranged Nazi, and not thinking too hard about what he was writing. It certainly is controversial, but I'm not writing him off - and I'm most definitely not writing other people off because they're published in the same magazine.

ETA: If you have examples of other writers there who you believe to be anti-Semitic, I am genuinely interested to see them. I'm not wedded to the site - I've just read some things from it before that seem quite balanced, and intelligently written. And I still stand by the link I posted in the first place.
 
Last edited:
I like the term “Zionazi”. Inflammatory as all hell, but technically accurate.
 
The entire formation of Israel as a state should never have happened

You will find that Herzl would have disagreed with you, as would have a considerable portion of the inner circle in the British Empire circa 1918.

Should is poorly used here. Try to deal with what is.

The Zionist movement of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries developed in parallel with nationalism's growth as various imperial powers changed form in the post-Napoleonic era. It was a political movement founded on a combined ethnic, religious, and cultural identity. (OK, you can call it secular, but a core element of the group identity is the common bond of Judaism from a cultural perspective.) Islamism is a political movement of a similar character. (It has the practical shortcoming of diverse ethnic/national/cultural baselines, which disperses its potential political power.) The leaders of the the Zionist political movement, and their successors who fulfilled the original vision, were able to make enough political deals, and succeed when blood and iron came into play, to turn a vision into a reality. That reality, of course, is a bit messier than the original vision of a shining city on a hill, eh?

Otto von Bismarck and his partisans likewise transformed a vision of a German empire in to reality over a generation, using a combination of politics, appeals to nationalism, deal making, and of course blood and iron.

The nationalistic leadership element among the Serbs appealed to a similar nationalist strain in the early 1990's in Yugoslavia, and in former Yugoslavia. They failed in their attempt to achieve their vision, in part due to their failure to make the necessary alliances with the various Powers in support of their vision. Their attempt to apply blood and iron to their political vision was successfully opposed. The mess is still being cleaned up in the Balkans, and is likely to be so for the next generation.

Not all that different from what Israel is mucking about with.

DR
 
Last edited:
I am open to suggestions for better sources.

OK, well here's one:
http://www.zionismontheweb.org/zionism/

This page is worth a look in particular:
http://www.zionismontheweb.org/zionism_issues.htm

The Counterpunch radical leftist line about Zionism being racist is propaganda, and Counterpunch's articles are so extreme and so into the 'evil neo-con' notion that Alex Jones features them approvingly on his sites.

Anyway, back to the Zionism = Racism idea:

Do Israeli Arabs live under an Apartheid Regime?

Anti-Zionists charge that the Arabs of Israel live under an "Apartheid" regime similar to that practiced in South Africa. South African Apartheid was practiced against native Africans who wanted an equal say in South African affairs. Regulations prevented marriage between races, enforced unequal pay and discriminatory employment and denied Black Africans equal representation. Israeli treatment of Arab minorities is not perfect, but it is improving. It is not "Apartheid." Israeli Arab citizens vote and participate in the government along with Jewish citizens, can own and buy land (a frequent and false charge made by the those who claim Israel is an Apartheid state, is that Arabs cannot buy land in Israel.) Israeli Arabs are legally protected against discrimination in government services and the work place. Arabs and Jews can marry Israeli Arabs. They enjoy a far higher standard of living and better health care and educational opportunities than their neighbors in Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. Arabs can serve in the Israeli army and some do, especially Bedouin and Druze.
 

Does the Flight and Expulsion of Palestinian Refugees prove that Zionism is Racist?

The Palestinian refugee problem was created because the Arabs of Palestine refused to live in a Jewish state and Arab states refused to accept U.N. Resolution 181, which partitioned Palestine. The refugees were not created by Zionism. The Arab side instigated a war, driven by Nazi-collaborator Haj Amin El-Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Husseini told the British that his solution for the "Jewish Question" in Palestine was the same as "the solution that had been adopted in Europe," namely extermination. Had there been no war, there would have been no refugees. The Jews of Palestine defended themselves, as any people would, regardless of ideology. After the war, they were reluctant to admit a large body of people who were belligerents by definition, because they had refused to live in a Jewish state. After World War II, Czechoslovakia expelled ethnic Germans who had been Czech citizens living in the Sudetensland, because they proved to be a threat to the national existence of Czechoslovakia. Nobody claimed that Czechoslovakia is racist for that reason.

Looks pretty neutral to me. :p

The question was whether you had any better suggestions for sites critical of the ideology. In less you believe the ideology is above criticism.

The Counterpunch radical leftist line about Zionism being racist is propaganda, and Counterpunch's articles are so extreme and so into the 'evil neo-con' notion that Alex Jones features them approvingly on his sites.

I disagree - you can make the case that Zionism is justified racism, but you can't by my reckoning claim it isn't racist. It's an ideology based on giving people who don't live in an area more rights to live there than the inhabitants on grounds of race.

As to Counterpunch and AJ... you don't seriously just mean he links to them, do you? I've seen him link to the mainstream media. Does that mean they're nutters too?

Re: Do Israeli Arabs live under an Apartheid regime. Figures from 2003.
In the end, Halper says, the advance of Zionism has been a process of displacement, and house demolitions have been "at the center of the Israeli struggle against the Palestinians" since 1948. Halper enumerates a steady history of destruction: in the first six years of Israel's existence, it systematically razed 418 Palestinian villages inside Israel, fully 85 percent of the villages existing before 1948; since the occupation began in 1967, Israel has demolished 11,000 Palestinian homes. More homes are now being demolished in the path of Israel's "separation wall." It is estimated that more than 4,000 homes have been destroyed in the last two years alone.

The vast majority of these house demolitions, 95 percent, have nothing whatever to do with fighting terrorism, but are designed specifically to displace non-Jews and assure the advance of Zionism. In Jerusalem, from the beginning of the occupation of the eastern sector of the city in 1967, Israeli authorities have designed zoning plans specifically to prevent the growth of the Palestinian population. Maintaining the "Jewish character" of the city at the level existing in 1967 (71 percent Jewish, 29 percent Palestinian) required that Israel draw zoning boundaries to prevent Palestinian expansion beyond existing neighborhoods, expropriate Palestinian-owned lands, confiscate the Jerusalem residency permits of any Palestinian who cannot prove that Jerusalem is his "center of life," limit city services to Palestinian areas, limit development in Palestinian neighborhoods, refuse to issue residential building permits to Palestinians, and demolish Palestinian homes that are built without permits. None of these strictures is imposed on Jews. According to ICAHD, the housing shortage in Palestinian neighborhoods in Jerusalem is approximately 25,000 units, and 2,000 demolition orders are pending.

http://www.counterpunch.org/christison11082003.html
 
Last edited:
I disagree - you can make the case that Zionism is justified racism, but you can't by my reckoning claim it isn't racist. It's an ideology based on giving people who don't live in an area more rights to live there than the inhabitants on grounds of race.

Could you please explain what you mean by that?
 
Could you please explain what you mean by that?

You could argue that it is a necessary expedient to be racist in favour of Jews, after the persecution they have suffered, and most specifically the Holocaust.

But an ideology that states that a racial group has the right to enter an area and forcibly evict the people living there is by my definition racist.

I suppose I would add the qualifier that if people who advocate the continued existence of Israel, within the stipulations and borders dictated by international law, and treating non-Jewish Israeli citizens equally are also now designated Zionists, then Zionism is not necessarily racist* - that is simple pragmatism, now that Israel very definitely exists.

But I assert that during the foundation of Israel, Zionism was, inescapably and by definition, racist.

* although even this would be complicated by the right of return presently enjoyed exclusively by Jews... it's blooming complicated :boggled:
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom