What do you think about the masked magician?

[Senex]

So you would argue that if someone sees a liquid crystal being prepared through a Suzuki reaction you should work out how it is done yourself (which is unlikely to be posible) rather than useing a book written by someone making money out of the thousands of hourse people have spent optomiseing that class of reactions?

I'm saying I enjoy a suzuki reaction as much as the next guy I will break down the reaction independently, on my own dime, each and every time I feel it necessary.

Attracting people to magic is good, escept he attracts these type of people to magic:

"OMG lyk how did he dun dat? teh grl lyk jst disaprd i gonna lrn da trik now bye mo-fos"

Just because I brought her back to my tent after the performance doesn't mean anything you should be concerned about.

I've watched a few of the shows and I don't think it will affect my enjoyment of magic much at all. After all, I did realize that it was just a gimmick, not real magick.

Magicians will just have to keep ahead of him, I guess.

~~ Paul

This is like spending time and writing a play that anyone can just copy and perform without paying royalties the day after you make it public.

It's wrong.

 

[Legend]

I'm still getting used to the skeptic cryptic, so I have no idea what tone, theme, rating (R 18+ ??) or meaning you had when addressing my post.

I know...we darn beginners!

Don't feel you must explain...

 

[Paul C. Anagnostopoulos]

This is like spending time and writing a play that anyone can just copy and perform without paying royalties the day after you make it public.

It's wrong.

It's more like inventing something and not being able to patent it. The masked magician isn't copying the schtick, patter, gestures, etc., is he? He's just using the same gimmick.

Does anyone know who he is?

~~ Paul

 

[Wolfman]

I'm kinda' mixed on this.

If it is a unique trick that one individual has invented and used, I'd have problems with the secret being revealed.

If it is a trick that is used by a number of different performers, and that you can learn by buying it from a magic shop/supplier, I don't really have a big problem with it.

Skilled magicians won't be greatly affected by this, I don't think. I know the secret to a lot of different tricks now...but I still enjoy watching a skilled magician pull them off. In fact, I greatly enjoy knowing how its done, and trying to watch to spot where he pulls of his sleight of hand, or how he misdirects the audience.

In fact, I'd say that my enjoyment of any particular magician has far more to do with his skill and showmanship, than with knowing (or not knowing) how a trick is done. A boring magician is boring, regardless of whether or not I know how he's doing it.

While I can understand why magicians would be upset about this, and can't say that their reaction is entirely unjustified, I'd also say that this particular trend will have two main outcomes:

1) Magicians will be forced to work much harder on their actual showmanship, on being creative. Not just buying a trick, then learning how to do it through repetition and practice, but also figuring out how to present the trick in a creative and unique manner, and how best to engage the audience. The magicians that master this will continue to be successful, regardless of how many of their tricks are revealed. Magicians who can't...well, its survival of the fittest.

2) Magicians will have greater pressure to think up new tricks, or variations on old tricks. For example, take a trick that's already been revealed, that most people know how its done. Then do it a different way. And when someone goes to reveal your trickery...they're the one who's surprised!

Personally, if you're a magician who's relying primarily on how the trick is done, and revealing it will ruin your act...then I question how much of an act you really have.

 

[Legend]

The question is so much less complicated that the need for a huge discussion:

Why the TV show?

It's just stupid. The entire idea is demeaning to many magicians.

It's not about saying, "Oh well I lost some tricks," but instead, "Oh my God, I lost some tricks!"

Putting it simply, it's just nasty and thoughtless.

Alex.

 

[AgeGap]

Does anyone know who he is?
~~ Paul

Wikipedia says Val Valentino but if this is a new series it may be a different actor.
From Wikipedia

The Art And Secrets Of Magic DVD
Recently, a new DVD was released starring the Masked Magician, teaching people how to do simple magic tricks. As each new DVD is released the tricks will become more challenging. There will be a total of four DVDs.

If someone got the the DVD and filmed themselves performing the same tricks then they could stick it on YouTube. What would he think about revealing tricks then?

 

[Senex]

I'm kinda' mixed on this.

If it is a unique trick that one individual has invented and used, I'd have problems with the secret being revealed.

That's sometimes problematic but you agree someone invented it. And if two (or three) people invented it why can't they split the royalties

While I can understand why magicians would be upset about this, and can't say that their reaction is entirely unjustified, I'd also say that this particular trend will have two main outcomes:

1) Magicians will be forced to work much harder on their actual showmanship, on being creative. Not just buying a trick, then learning how to do it through repetition and practice, but also figuring out how to present the trick in a creative and unique manner, and how best to engage the audience. The magicians that master this will continue to be successful, regardless of how many of their tricks are revealed. Magicians who can't...well, its survival of the fittest.


2) Magicians will have greater pressure to think up new tricks, or variations on old tricks. For example, take a trick that's already been revealed, that most people know how its done. Then do it a different way. And when someone goes to reveal your trickery...they're the one who's surprised!

Neither of these address the problem of the masked magician making a living on others inovations.

Personally, if you're a magician who's relying primarily on how the trick is done, and revealing it will ruin your act...then I question how much of an act you really have.

I can't wait to see your act

 

[Wolfman]

I can't wait to see your act

I speak from the very comfortable position of not being a magician, and therefore not being in any way affected by this...and I fully acknowledge that However, the fact remains...for all the complaining, I don't see any noticeable decrease in interest in magic. The big names are still big names. People are still paying to watch the shows.

Penn & Teller are a brilliant example of this, in my opinion. They can actually show you, intentionally, how a trick is done, and remove all the mystery from it...and yet still leave you saying, "Wow, what an amazing show". They understand very well the difference between relying on the tricks, and relying on actual showmanship. Magicians who really know how to entertain -- and not just how to do a bunch of tricks -- shouldn't face any serious problems as a result of this show.

 

[Legend]

It's hard to have an opinion on this if you aren't involved in magic.

Penn and Teller reveal tiny MINISCULE sleight of hand tricks which the majority work because they look great, rather than the audience not knowing how they're done.

However, the fact remains...for all the complaining, I don't see any noticeable decrease in interest in magic. The big names are still big names. People are still paying to watch the shows.

That opinion would change if you were a magician. It's not about anything else but the fact that magic is being revealed. The trick dies to anyone who knows how it's done.

It's just wrong and shouldn't be happening.

Alex.

 

[Leif Roar]

*shrugs* I don't see any reason why magicians should have and special right to secrecy. Stage magic is entertainment, and if revealing how a magic trick is performed is entertaining to an audience ... well, that's mission accomplished.

So it makes your job as a performer more difficult. And? The car made it more difficult for the farrier to make a living, and endless ever-more-vapid series of books by established authors make the job more difficult for new authors to get published and break into the market. Life's not convenient, and the Masked Magician doesn't have any more obligation to make your job easy than you do his.

 

[Legend]

The car made it more difficult for the farrier to make a living, and endless ever-more-vapid series of books by established authors make the job more difficult for new authors to get published and break into the market.

Those comparisons are ridiculous and dissimilar to what we're talking about. With a bit of thinking I think you could reach that conclusion as well.

This isn't a market-place we're talking about.

Alex.

 

[geni]

That's sometimes problematic but you agree someone invented it. And if two (or three) people invented it why can't they split the royalties

Because they failed to patent it.

 

[geni]

Those comparisons are ridiculous and dissimilar to what we're talking about. With a bit of thinking I think you could reach that conclusion as well.

This isn't a market-place we're talking about.

Alex.

It is. Mostly falls under the trade secret area of IP.

 

[Legend]

Again, things would change if you guys were magicians.

Understand that the car wasn't making money from the "farrier's" secrets.

The car isn't stealing from the farrier. The masked magician concept, is a robber.

Alex.

 

[Leif Roar]

Again, things would change if you guys were magicians.

That's one of the most twisted ad homiens I've seen. No, nothing would change if "us guys" were magicians -- except, possibly, our personal likes or dislikes on the matter. The arguments would remain unaffected.

Or would you accept "Things would change if you weren't a magician" as an argument in favour of the Masked Magican? No, I thought not.

Understand that the car wasn't making money from the "farrier's" secrets.

The car isn't stealing from the farrier. The masked magician concept, is a robber.

If there is a breach of confidality involved, that's a separate matter. That is wrong. If there isn't a breach of confidality involved ... well, then it wasn't all that much of a secret, was it?

 

[Darat]

I really liked the one or two masked magician episodes I saw. It's actually the only sort of magic that I find entertaining.
I don't mind if it's simple magic with cards, sponge balls and false thumbs or the most elaborate stage magic with elephants and heavy machinery.
I know that they use trickery, I know I can be fooled by trickery. That by itself has no entertainment value for me. It's also frustrating, a bit like watching a film that ends with a cliff hanger that will never be resolved in a sequel.
But getting to know how I was fooled and how things work is fascinating and in no way deminishes the performance of the magician.
But perhaps that is only my engineering mindset that makes me prefer taking home the explanation for a mystery over the mystery itself.

I agree with this and I don't see how this type of show is any different from one that says it "reveals the secrets of movie special effects" and goes on to do exactly that. I like to learn how things are done, indeed when I've had some magic tricks explained to me it has only increased my enjoyment of seeing that trick performed again because I am trying to see if I can spot the trick of the trick being done.

If there is a concern that these types of show are revealing unique IP well I would suggest it is time magicians got up to speed on the various ways there are to protect such IP and commercial knowledge.

 

[Legend]

That's one of the most twisted ad homiens I've seen. No, nothing would change if "us guys" were magicians -- except, possibly, our personal likes or dislikes on the matter. The arguments would remain unaffected.

Or would you accept "Things would change if you weren't a magician" as an argument in favour of the Masked Magican? No, I thought not.

If there is a breach of confidality involved, that's a separate matter. That is wrong. If there isn't a breach of confidality involved ... well, then it wasn't all that much of a secret, was it?

Just a thought. How about, before you make assumptions about what I'm thinking, you shutup and listen? It could just gain you some respect from people.

Or would you accept "Things would change if you weren't a magician" as an argument in favour of the Masked Magican? No, I thought not.

What a stupid comment. OF COURSE my opinion would change. I would have little respect for magic as a whole and see it from a completely different perspective. One thing that drives me insane, is that when someone who knows a particular topic, is confronted by an adamant other who doesn't, thinking they know all there is to know about the matter. It's more complicated than you'd think.

If there is a breach of confidality involved, that's a separate matter. That is wrong. If there isn't a breach of confidality involved ... well, then it wasn't all that much of a secret, was it?

I'm not catching your drift here.

ad homiens

Dd hominems** And the comment in question was not anything but factual.

To summarise this particular view:

What you're saying is not only aggravating, but stupid, wild and baseless. Accept that when you're involved with something, your opinions do inevitably change, simply because that is the truth.

This entire conversation would be completely different if I were to take this to a magic site I'm a member of.

As a matter of fact, here are some comments on the site (after I searched the forums) and came up with:

To relate it to the IBM, my local ring seems to run like Magic Hat. You jump through a few hoops, prove that youre in it for the magic, and not to become the dreaded Masked Magician

From a topic about The Masked Magician, entitled: "Today I died a little bit inside."

It is with great grief that I announce that today, November 8th 2008, about 10 minutes ago, a show called "Os segredos da Magia", in english, "The secrets of Magic", ended it's first episode. Starring the Masked Magician.

In ONE episode I lost SAW and healed and sealed soda can. A friend of mine has already started to recieve SMS saying "I know how you did that trick on YouTube."

How could it be that our dearest and most valuable secrets can be blatantly destroyed like this?

A girl that started THIS WEEK in magic, knowing nothing more than 2 palms and a swing cut, already hates him.

I can't believe this. I just died a little bit. Monday I'll probably have to put up with idiots full of joy, because they saw a traitor and a fraud reveal how I did my string through neck trick. I swear I'll strangle anyone who mentions this show.

Revealing older stage illusions is bad enough but those two tricks are still on the market, private domain, and commonly performed. I understand that you gotta make a living and if you absolutely must reveal tricks to make money, (I don't know how you would think of doing that for a career) then do something that won't decimate somebody's act/reputation.

Like, I was gobsmacked. When he started doing Needle through arm, I simply walked out of the living room...

I am glad to live somewhere where we cant see these kind of shows on tv. But still... I would sure like to kick him, %*#&$#*&!!

A personal favourite:

Today I got this comment "Hey did you see that magic show last friday? I got to tell you, not to offend you or any magician like you, but magic is a lot of bull****."

And to think an arrow missed his heart for 4 cm...

Has there been assassination attempts on this guy yet?

Another goodie:

Don't you just hate it, though? When someone like that just blatantly reveals stuff, and you just can't do anything about it? You lose, and you will never win. We can't tell spectators, "This guy is a poor magician who can't keep secrets" and whatnot. It sucks. Somebody should give this Val Valentino a good smack on the head and a kick in the you-know-what, and then tell him, "Look, you're putting many other guys out of work because of your stupid show." But then, that's probably never going to happen.

And another:

I still think someone should shoot this guy

The boldened text was for those who don't read all of the quotes.

I thought I had seen stupid comments in my life, but this surpasses them all. "If we were magicians our arguments would be the same". Honestly...

Alex.

P.S. I hope to God I misread what you wrote.

 

[geni]

I agree with this and I don't see how this type of show is any different from one that says it "reveals the secrets of movie special effects" and goes on to do exactly that.

Movie special effects are more likely to be protected by patent (although not the more straightforward ones.

 

[Wolfman]

It's hard to have an opinion on this if you aren't involved in magic.

Oh, geez, another one of those. "You're not entitled to have an opinion, and any opinion you have has no validity, because you don't belong to the group that I belong to". Like women who claim that men don't have a right to an opinion on the abortion debate, because they'll never be pregnant.

Get over yourself.

Two points I'll raise.

First of all, the vast majority of magicians are not creating their own tricks. They are buying their tricks from other people, or learning them from books/videos. If you're going to argue that the masked magician shouldn't be allowed to earn money from tricks that were invented by other people, then why the hell should other magicians be allowed to? Aren't you, in effect, a whole bunch of parasites? There's a very small number of magicians who actually create new tricks; and a whole bunch of magicians who simply copy and imitate them.

In short -- if it is wrong for the Masked Magician to make money fby using tricks that other people created...why is it right for you or any other magician to make money from using tricks that other people created? Hell, let's trademark all the tricks, and only let those who invented them use them (or license them out to others, with fees and royalties being paid for all uses of those tricks)...and then let's see how long the majority of "magicians" actually survive.

No wonder you get so upset about someone revealing the secrets...you don't have the ability to actually create something of your own. You are entirely reliant on being able to copy other people.

(note -- this is addressed very specifically to Legend, in response to the arrogance he displayed in his response...it doesn't reflect my real feelings about most magicians )

Second, I have not seen any argument that has actually demonstrated, in verifiable terms, any damage that has been done by the Masked Magician's revelations. So far as I can tell, good magic acts and talented magicians are still getting lots of business, and having popular shows. I myself have watched a number of these shows -- both the Masked Magician, and a variety of videos on YouTube -- and it has not in any way affected my enjoyment of magic, or my desire to see it. Nor, in talking to others, have I found it to affect their interest in magic in any negative manner.

That opinion would change if you were a magician. It's not about anything else but the fact that magic is being revealed. The trick dies to anyone who knows how it's done.

REALLY!!! Not only am I not entitled to any opinion, but you also know what my opinion would be if I were a magician. Yet, viewing the responses to this over the years, there have been some magicians who've stated either that they don't care about what the Masked Magician does, or that they actually think its a good idea.

So your statement doesn't even hold true in actual reality...much less in regards to trying to predict what opinions or attitudes I'd have if I were a magician.

It's just wrong and shouldn't be happening.

Alex.

And I love it when someone takes a personal opinion, and without anything beyond their own personal opinion to support it, conclude that it is the Truth, and the only reasonable/possible conclusion.

I've found the responses of the majority of magicians here to be quite reasonable and understandable. I may not agree with them entirely -- obviously, my perspective is different as a non-magician, obviously -- but I can sympathize with them.

But in your case, my response has nothing whatsoever to do with being a magician. It has to do with the crass arrogance demonstrated, the anti-intellectual and anti-skeptical arguments you use to claim that those who aren't magicians can't have an opinion, or that your personal opinions constitute actual fact.

 

[roger]

I like watching the shows (I've only seen the older specials, not the current series), and I still like watching magic. I took great delight in watching Randi perform some magic in VT, and figuring out how it was done - not based on a direct expose that I saw, but by thinking about the ways he might of manipulated my perception. I.e., the stuff I saw on TV prepared my way of thinking about things. Some of his other stuff I already knew how it was done - it was fun to watch how he did it. As a kid I did some mild magic - cup and balls and the like. No way I could do the routine now. But it never diminished my appreciation of magic.