What did Democrats do wrong?

[wareyin]

i think they felt that way yes. they had priorities and dems expected them to settle for that while they ditched them to pursue moderate centrists. seems accurate to me



i think you’re misattributing the blame there. progressives are more similar to independents imo, and you aren’t calling them out for doing the same thing. actually, conservative leaning independents probably actually voted for trump.

Of course the conservative leaning independents voted for Trump. That’s a predictable outcome because those voters recognized the basic value of getting some of what they want rather than getting none of what they want. Why are you willing to grant those voters the strategic agency to make that choice, but then treat progressives as if they have no agency at all?

Holding people responsible for their own choices isn't "misattributing blame." You are framing progressives as if they’re just passive observers of their own lives who couldn't be expected to recognize that choices have consequences. It’s a bizarre double standard. You understand and expect that right leaning independents had the common sense to vote for their interests, but then argue it's "reasonable" for progressives to act against their own interests because they didn't get 100% of their wishlist.

They aren't kids who need to be shielded from the results of their own actions. They are adults who made a choice to either stay home or help Trump win, knowing exactly what he promised to do to their priorities. If a "conservative independent" can do the math on "some vs. none," why are you so invested in the idea that progressives shouldn't be expected to be able to do the same thing?

 

[dirtywick]

this isn’t really going anywhere and getting repetitive and don’t really care to spend anymore time on it.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

this isn’t really going anywhere and getting repetitive and don’t really care to spend anymore time on it.

But the ongoing discussion may well have justified @Hercules56's creation of this thread, and given him some satisfaction even though he can no longer contribute.

 

[Thermal]

But the ongoing discussion may well have justified @Hercules56's creation of this thread, and given him some satisfaction even though he can no longer contribute.

Shall we have a moment of silence to honor his inability to do the same?

 

[bruto]

Shall we have a moment of silence to honor his inability to do the same?

Depending, of course on how we interpret the word "honor," I recommend that the moment of "silence" be provided by a chorus of whistles loud enough that nothing else can be heard.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Depending, of course on how we interpret the word "honor," I recommend that the moment of "silence" be provided by a chorus of whistles loud enough that nothing else can be heard.

Or we could hit pots and pans with wooden spoons like we're celebrating the hard work of NHS workers, or 'Boris' Johnson's painful demise.

 

[Emily's Cat]

We told them facts. They can't do math, so you need to show them things that make them hate the rich, or at the least envy them.
They don't like to be ripped off. If you tell them Trump and Musk are ripping them off, it's "do think I'm stupid?" and well, that is where the cut you off.

So outright emotional manipulation and misinformation is the plan for a Dem win? Is that really the best you can come up with - instigate hatred?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Your claim to have voted for Harris doesn't matter, no. Not when it is not verifiable, nor when you spend all of your energy telling people why they should not vote for the Democrats. Frankly, if every online progressive who spends all of their energy attacking the Dems but claims to have voted for Harris anyway actually had, she'd be President right now.

It wasn't a lack of progressive votes that lost Harris the presidency. It could be perfectly true that every online progressive who claims to have voted for Harris actually did, and they still could have lost. Progressives are LOUD, but not actually a majority of voters by a long-shot. I mean, you know that, don't you?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Independents are certainly fickle in the sense that as independents, they "could" go either way, although evidence shows that most people that call themselves independent are almost always going to vote for the same party.

I call myself an independent. My voting record is:
1996 B. Clinton
2000 --Did not vote--
2004 W. Bush
2008 Obama
2012 Obama
2016 Stein (I think, might have been some other 3rd party)
2020 Biden
2024 Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson as a write in

So that's 4 Dems, 1 Rep, and 2 Other

Tell me again how I'm a far right conservative?

 

[Segnosaur]

Independents are certainly fickle in the sense that as independents, they "could" go either way, although evidence shows that most people that call themselves independent are almost always going to vote for the same party.

I call myself an independent.

Keep in mind that the previous poster said MOST people who call themselves independent vote for the same party. The fact that you didn't stick to one party doesn't mean that you are in the majority.

My voting record is:
1996 B. Clinton
2000 --Did not vote--
2004 W. Bush
2008 Obama
2012 Obama
2016 Stein (I think, might have been some other 3rd party)
2020 Biden
2024 Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson as a write in

So that's 4 Dems, 1 Rep, and 2 Other

Tell me again how I'm a far right conservative?

There were 2 elections where you could have worked to "stop trump". You may not have voted FOR trump in those elections, but you ended up wasting your vote on either a 3rd party or write-in.

In 2016 you looked at a man who campaigned on appointing pro-life justices to the supreme court and who used racist dog whistles (like how you cannot trust Americans of hispanic descent) and said "That's not a real problem for me".

In 2024 you looked at a man who was a convicted felon, who was tied to the pro-fascist "project 2025", and supported the January 6 terrorist attack on the capitol and thought "This was not serious enough for me to vote against".

If the state of your political knowledge/opinions are that you cannot differentiate between a competent/capable Democrat (even if flawed), and someone who is a racist con-artist who wants to turn the US fascist, to the point where you would waste your ballot rather than "vote for the non-fascist", then I think people are right to question your political leanings.

Note: I do recognize that some people may be in solid red or blue states, where they feel "my vote doesn't matter". However, I still feel there is value in voting in those situations, if for no reason than you can let republican lawmakers know that "trump ain't that popular".

 

[ahhell]

Your results may vary of course but Wareyin is correct at least until recently most self-described independents tend to consistently vote for one party or the other. I'm curious if that has changed recently, I hope so.

For whatever it worth. I voted republican until Bush 2 then either Green or Libertarian depending on whether I was in a blue or red district and have voted Dem since 2016. Except republican primaries, I can vote in primary in my state, so I've been voting for the least Trumpy republican. They've lost every time but I'm in a blue district so, meh.

I do wonder what the 1992 version of me would think if they found out I'd voted for Hillary Clinton for president.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Note: I do recognize that some people may be in solid red or blue states, where they feel "my vote doesn't matter". However, I still feel there is value in voting in those situations, if for no reason than you can let republican lawmakers know that "trump ain't that popular".

I agree. Here in the UK I've mostly lived in solidly Tory constituencies (I've lived in both that elected 'Boris' Johnson), where I live now had returned Tories consistently for over a century, but I always voted on the basis that even under FPTP the popular vote is registered. Last election thanks to tactical voting we actually turned the constituency.

 

[bruto]

I agree with those above about voting when your vote doesn't seem to count. Individually taken, few do., and even taken as a group many do not. I, for example, live in a state whose tiny electoral output has never been enough to tip the balance. It's likely it never will, and even more likely that my single vote would not change the State's electoral output. Florida, a winner-take-all state like most, has ten times as many electoral votes as Vermont, and a population about 40 times ours. Even without the outrageous amount of gerrymandering likely present there, it means that if a little fewer than 20 times our population votes our way, their votes will be nullified, and the resulting electoral vote will be ten times ours.

But in theory, if things go differently, the two parties might come within three electoral votes of each other, and then, sure enough, ours would count. And sure, it's unlikely one vote will make a difference, but it might. Bernie Sanders began his political career with a ten-vote win!

And anyway, we get counted in some way, as voices. And having voted, nobody can say we didn't.

I suppose one runs the dire risk of falling into the maw of a categorical imperative here, but so be it. I think we should vote as if our votes mattered, and try, at least, to behave in the way we'd like to see everyone behave. Though to do so may rarely if ever do any tangible good, it is far more certain that it will do no harm.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Tell me again how I'm a far right conservative?

Sure thing, it's this bit:

2024 Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson as a write in

You took part in an election against literal Nazis and just couldn't make up your mind about them. You can't claim ignorance, you knew what you were doing, you took the time to vote, but deliberately threw it away just to make a point.

The irony is, Dem leadership would rather have you in their tent than someone who votes straight blue but wants them to try harder to do their jobs.

 

[wareyin]

It wasn't a lack of progressive votes that lost Harris the presidency. It could be perfectly true that every online progressive who claims to have voted for Harris actually did, and they still could have lost. Progressives are LOUD, but not actually a majority of voters by a long-shot. I mean, you know that, don't you?

I certainly agree they are loud and not a majority; I have made both points already in this thread. My point is that almost all of them pivot immediately from telling you not to vote for Democrats to claiming they "vote(s) straight blue" in every election, then they go right back to telling you that Democrats do not deserve your vote. In other words, their demonstrated actions are what you should be paying attention to. Their claim to have done something in a secret ballot is extremely suspect when it contradicts everything they told you to do before the election and are still telling you to do now.

I call myself an independent. My voting record is:
1996 B. Clinton
2000 --Did not vote--
2004 W. Bush
2008 Obama
2012 Obama
2016 Stein (I think, might have been some other 3rd party)
2020 Biden
2024 Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson as a write in

So that's 4 Dems, 1 Rep, and 2 Other

Tell me again how I'm a far right conservative?

We already went round and round about that. I pointed out your conservative statements about J6, your anti-democratic voter ID stance, your authoritarian claim that "not showing your identity papers on demand is harmful to society", your conservative views regarding guns, and your extreme anti-trans conservative rants. I even linked to your own claim to actually be a conservative. Somehow none of that counted.

But agreeing with Segnosaur: even if a joke Stein vote in 2016 was a mistake made before you knew how bad Trump could be, a joke Dwayne the Rock Johnson vote in 2024 when you knew both how bad Trump was the first time and that he promised to be worse the second time says you were perfectly fine with a fascist dictator in charge. Your regular "don't call MAGA Nazis" pearl clutching and your "pro ICE brutality" stances reinforce that far right conservative view.

 

[theprestige]

I'll add "excoriating moderates, centrists, and swing voters for not being sufficiently enthusiastic about the Democratic party" to the list of things Democrats did wrong.

 

[Thermal]

Tell me again how I'm a far right conservative?

In addition to the arguments above, there is nothing at all prohibiting someone from holding far (or alt) right positions close to their heart, and still casting a vote elsewhere for other reasons, like simple practicality or more direct self-benefit.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

I call myself an independent. My voting record is:
1996 B. Clinton
2000 --Did not vote--
2004 W. Bush
2008 Obama
2012 Obama
2016 Stein (I think, might have been some other 3rd party)
2020 Biden
2024 Dwayne 'The Rock' Johnson as a write in

So that's 4 Dems, 1 Rep, and 2 Other

Tell me again how I'm a far right conservative?

You are free to make up whatever voting history you like, and nobody can say otherwise.

What we can do is see and comment on your recent posting history on this forum, which lately has consisted largely of sanewashing such things as:

the Jan. 6 Capitol riots,
the "fine people" who participated in the Unite the Right rally,
Trump's territorial claims on Greenland,
Trump's desire to revoke birthright citizenship,
the Trump admin's random decision to abruptly cut off purchase cards at VA hospitals,

along with the standard anti-trans nonsense.

Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

ETA: I see wareyin has added a couple items as well that I had forgotten about.

*That's* how you're a far-right conservative, or at least resemble one so closely in behavior that your interlocutors see no difference.

 

[ahhell]

The greatest sin, insufficient revolutionary zeal.

 

[wareyin]

The greatest sin, insufficient revolutionary zeal.

Just to be clear, you're claiming that the Dem's greatest sin was the lack of zeal by people that never liked them anyway?