What did Democrats do wrong?

[Emily's Cat]

It's some IMAX-level projection, too. Which party punishes dissent? Which party habitually frames their political opponents as enemies?

Trick question - they both do.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I really, really, don't understand how deporting a violent criminal, possibly a murder or rapist, is supposed to be an adequate punishment, deterrent and way to make your society safer. What the people screaming for the deportation of "Illegal Aliens" are doing is demanding that the punitive justice system be replace by a Catch-and-Release system.
If you were, at all, concerned about protecting your society from criminals, you would make sure that criminals are arrested, tried and imprisoned; don't give the "alien drug dealer", who already demonstrated that they can enter the country illegal, the opportunity to do so again, now with the knowledge of the last experience.

None of this has ANYTHING to do with Crime - it's just racism, nothing else.

So you support INCREASING the US prison system?

 

[Emily's Cat]

No one who marches next to someone shouting "Jews will not replace us" is a fine person.

I suppose you hold that same view towards the people marching to recognize Palestine as an independent state, given that they're marching next to people who are venerating Hamas and calling for worldwide intifada? Do you consider ALL of them to be bad people?

 

[dirtywick]

And yet these self same savy people never seemed to apply that critical thinking to Trump and his ilk, who would ONLY debate if they were allowed to lie unchecked.

being free to lie is the most brilliant part of the way they framed the free speech debate. both sides are the same, the truth is somewhere in the middle, they must be given equal platform by all because to not allow the lie is to silence them.

never really stopped to consider that both sides aren't the same and they've been duped. and suddenly you find yourself defending fascism from criticism, too proud to admit you were wrong. oh well, i'd say not my problem but that's not really true either.

 

[d4m10n]

Roughly 85% of the posts in this thread have essentially proclaimed that Democrats didn't do anything wrong at all, it's just that most of Americans are evil racist bigots who are poo-poo heads.

If Dems can just condense that down to a slogan, 2026 is in the bag.

ETA: Maybe work in something about how "deplorables" are bitterly clingling to "guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them."

 

[Emily's Cat]

being free to lie is the most brilliant part of the way they framed the free speech debate. both sides are the same, the truth is somewhere in the middle, they must be given equal platform by all because to not allow the lie is to silence them.

never really stopped to consider that both sides aren't the same and they've been duped. and suddenly you find yourself defending fascism from criticism, too proud to admit you were wrong. oh well, i'd say not my problem but that's not really true either.

There's also this thing where you KNOW Trump engages in absolutely absurd exaggeration, is extremely self-centered, and you don't believe anything they say pretty much ever. Dems, however, have been persistently touting themselves as being honest and having integrity.

When a liar lies to you, you already know it's a lie, and you don't trust any of it anyway. When someone you thought was honest lies to you about something incredibly important, and does so blatantly... you start to think maybe they were never very honest to begin with, and it calls into question everything they've ever told you.

 

[johnny karate]

I suppose you hold that same view towards the people marching to recognize Palestine as an independent state, given that they're marching next to people who are venerating Hamas and calling for worldwide intifada? Do you consider ALL of them to be bad people?

If supporters of Hamas organized the rally those people are attending - the way that white supremecists organized the Charlottesville rally - then yes, that would be a fair criticism.

Got any examples of that happening?

 

[johnny karate]

No one thought it was possible, but somehow the argument that people voted for Trump because they don't like liars got even stupider:

There's also this thing where you KNOW Trump engages in absolutely absurd exaggeration, is extremely self-centered, and you don't believe anything they say pretty much ever. Dems, however, have been persistently touting themselves as being honest and having integrity.

When a liar lies to you, you already know it's a lie, and you don't trust any of it anyway. When someone you thought was honest lies to you about something incredibly important, and does so blatantly... you start to think maybe they were never very honest to begin with, and it calls into question everything they've ever told you.

Congrats to everyone involved for achieving new, previously believed impossible, levels of stupidity.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Beg to differ.

One of the biggest problems with the Democratic party is their supporters and the amount of time they spend vilifying anyone who isn't as progressive as they feel everyone ought to be. It's the completely lack of tolerance from progressives, the lack of empathy from progressives, and it's the unceasing barrage of hatred from progressives. Especially since it's not exactly laser focused - it's scatter shot toward everyone who isn't progressive.

You beg to differ on how agency works? Okay.

As to the Democratic party vilifying anyone who isn't progressive, that's hardly true. There are ideological purists who do, of course, as there are for any ideology. But the party in general? Not so much.

Try this: Who was the last progressive to get the Democratic presidential nomination? Obama, maybe? Before that...Dukakis? Biden isn't very progressive, yet he got the nomination. Harris, the Clintons, none of them progressive. And while there are progressives who criticize them, the party in general does not. Neither of the Democratic senators for my state, Virginia, Kaine and Warner, are particularly progressive, yet they rarely if ever face significant primary challenges. Is Chuch Schumer progressive?

The mayorial race in New York? Democratic politicians seem surprisingly tepid in their support of the progressive candidate, despite his being a clear frontrunner. And I don't remember the Harris campaign vilifying Liz Cheney or the other "moderate Republicans" they were courting because they weren't progressive. There was no comparable reaching out to moderate Democrats from the Republicans. So I don't know where you're getting this whole narrative.

The Democratic Party has a strong moderate wing that gets its way as often as not. The GOP does not.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Beg to differ.

One of the biggest problems with the Democratic party is their supporters and the amount of time they spend vilifying anyone who isn't as progressive as they feel everyone ought to be. It's the completely lack of tolerance from progressives, the lack of empathy from progressives, and it's the unceasing barrage of hatred from progressives. Especially since it's not exactly laser focused - it's scatter shot toward everyone who isn't progressive.

You beg to differ on how agency works? Okay.

As to the Democratic party vilifying anyone who isn't progressive, that's hardly true. There are ideological purists who do, of course, as there are for any ideology. But the party in general? Not so much.

Try this: Who was the last progressive to get the Democratic presidential nomination? Obama, maybe? Before that...Dukakis? Biden isn't very progressive, yet he got the nomination. Harris, the Clintons, none of them progressive. And while there are progressives who criticize them, the party in general does not. Neither of the Democratic senators for my state, Virginia, Kaine and Warner, are particularly progressive, yet they rarely if ever face significant primary challenges. Is Chuch Schumer progressive?

The mayorial race in New York? Democratic politicians seem surprisingly tepid in their support of the progressive candidate, despite his being a clear frontrunner. And I don't remember the Harris campaign vilifying Liz Cheney or the other "moderate Republicans" they were courting because they weren't progressive. There was no comparable reaching out to moderate Democrats from the Republicans. So I don't know where you're getting this whole narrative.

The Democratic Party has a strong moderate wing that gets its way as often as not. The GOP does not.

Maybe try re-reading my post for content and understanding?

It's the behavior of supporters that is a not-insignificant chunk of the issue. In particular, it's the behavior of progressive non-politicians that are a problem, and the unwillingness of Democratic politicians to oppose some of those pet positions.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Maybe try re-reading my post for content and understanding?

It's the behavior of supporters that is a not-insignificant chunk of the issue. In particular, it's the behavior of progressive non-politicians that are a problem, and the unwillingness of Democratic politicians to oppose some of those pet positions.

I'm not seeing how this makes your narrative any less imaginary. And it also makes less sense. So now the problem with the Democratic Party is the supposed intolerant behavior of unspecified non-politicians who rarely get their "pet positions" on the platform, or their candidates on the ticket?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

I would love it if people would take quotes in context. Trump is downright painful to try to listen to, but that's no reason to intentionally resort to mischaracterizations. That kind of behavior, particularly on the part of media, is fueling our current state.

In context, Trump condemned the neo-nazis. He talked about there being violent people on both sides of the situation, and that there were fine people on both sides as well. Because while some of the protestors were neo-nazis, a whole lot of them weren't - and it's irresponsible to vilify everyone present because of the actions of a few - wouldn't you agree?

No, I would not agree. Most, if not all of the major players at the Unite the Right rally were defined by despicable positions and affiliations, regardless of whether they were technically "neo-nazis". And the rest chose to march next to their banners, cheer their speakers, echo their slogans, knowing ahead of time that those would be the banners, speakers, and slogans. The only people I might exempt from this would be a handful of local useful idiots who really didn't know what was going on, and just got swept up because they thought it was exciting. I have other criticisms for those people.

Nobody evincing properties I would associate with "fine people" would have been there voluntarily.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No, I would not agree. Most, if not all of the major players at the Unite the Right rally were defined by despicable positions and affiliations, regardless of whether they were technically "neo-nazis". And the rest chose to march next to their banners, cheer their speakers, echo their slogans, knowing ahead of time that those would be the banners, speakers, and slogans. The only people I might exempt from this would be a handful of local useful idiots who really didn't know what was going on, and just got swept up because they thought it was exciting. I have other criticisms for those people.

Nobody evincing properties I would associate with "fine people" would have been there voluntarily.

Okay. So if you organize a protest for something you care about and a group of extremists whose views you don't share show up to the protest... you would walk away and not protest at all?

If a pro-hamas extremist shows up to a free palestine protest, you think all of the free palestine protesters should pack up and go home, otherwise they'll all be just as bad as the terrorist supporting ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊?

If a group of black separatists, like the New Black Panther Party, showed up to a BLM rally, you think all of the BLM supporters should excuse themselves and stop speaking and advocating?

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Okay. So if you organize a protest for something you care about and a group of extremists whose views you don't share show up to the protest... you would walk away and not protest at all?

"A group of extremists" didn't show up uninvited to the Unite the Right Rally; they organized it. Jason Kessler got exactly the crowd he wanted and expected, even if events didn't shake out the way he might have hoped.

The rest of your examples are iterations of the same irrelevant notion that the extremists were unwanted gate-crashers, rather than the actual organizers.

 

[johnny karate]

Okay. So if you organize a protest for something you care about and a group of extremists whose views you don't share show up to the protest... you would walk away and not protest at all?

If a pro-hamas extremist shows up to a free palestine protest, you think all of the free palestine protesters should pack up and go home, otherwise they'll all be just as bad as the terrorist supporting ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊?

If a group of black separatists, like the New Black Panther Party, showed up to a BLM rally, you think all of the BLM supporters should excuse themselves and stop speaking and advocating?

It should be noted that this is backwards from what happened in Charlottesville.

The rally was organized by a white supremacist organization and the argument from those defending Trump’s comments is that other people who weren’t white supremacists also showed up (It has yet to be explained who goes to a white supremacist rally that isn’t a white supremacist or at least sympathetic to their views.)

I know for a fact that the poster making the above argument is aware of this so what they are arguing is an intentionally dishonest representation. To the surprise of no one, I’m sure.

ETA: Ninja’d by Reformed Offlian.

 

[I Am The Scum]

No one thought it was possible, but somehow the argument that people voted for Trump because they don't like liars got even stupider:


Congrats to everyone involved for achieving new, previously believed impossible, levels of stupidity.

Trump lies so much that he's allowed to do it now. It's just like how when a serial killer hits their twentieth victim, we shrug our shoulders and resolve to let them get away with it. We call it the "Gacy Rule."

 

[Reformed Offlian]

It should be noted that this is backwards from what happened in Charlottesville.

The rally was organized by a white supremacist organization and the argument from those defending Trump’s comments is that other people who weren’t white supremacists also showed up (It has yet to be explained who goes to a white supremacist rally that isn’t a white supremacist or at least sympathetic to their views.)

I know for a fact that the poster making the above argument is aware of this so what they are arguing is an intentionally dishonest representation. To the surprise of no one, I’m sure.

ETA: Ninja’d by Reformed Offlian.

Ninjas gotta hang together. I feel seen. (or, since we're ninjas, I feel...not seen?) Anyway, you add a good additional point that Emily's Cat not only has the situation the wrong way round, she has the apologia the wrong way round.

 

[I Am The Scum]

I suppose you hold that same view towards the people marching to recognize Palestine as an independent state, given that they're marching next to people who are venerating Hamas and calling for worldwide intifada? Do you consider ALL of them to be bad people?

Henceforth, I think I will turn every response I give to you into a little game: I will try to figure out the dumbest way that someone can turn a fair criticism of the right into an unfair criticism of the left. I give myself a cookie every time your response matches my prediction.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Henceforth, I think I will turn every response I give to you into a little game: I will try to figure out the dumbest way that someone can turn a fair criticism of the right into an unfair criticism of the left. I give myself a cookie every time your response matches my prediction.

*every Girl Scout in a 10-mile radius has joined the chat*

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Henceforth, I think I will turn every response I give to you into a little game: I will try to figure out the dumbest way that someone can turn a fair criticism of the right into an unfair criticism of the left. I give myself a cookie every time your response matches my prediction.

*Warning side effects may include nausea, weight gain and diabetes.