What did Democrats do wrong?

[Reformed Offlian]

Unfortunately I don't think you've been following the news to be dismissing it out of hand like this. I could grab more, but best for me to manage how much time I spend on this vs the actual degree of discussion I can expect. Example 1, Example 2, Example 3, Example 4, Example 5

This is Willie Horton all over again. Which also totally wasn't about race.

 

[I Am The Scum]

When you make everything about race without exception, that's part of the problem, because you've over-simplified the issue to sheer absurdity and show a willingness to ignore legitimate problems.

This is you employing hyperbole to decry the hyperbole you see in others. It would be easier to take you seriously if you weren't being a hypocrite. Be the change you want to see.

 

[I Am The Scum]

Unfortunately I don't think you've been following the news to be dismissing it out of hand like this. I could grab more, but best for me to manage how much time I spend on this vs the actual degree of discussion I can expect. Example 1, Example 2, Example 3, Example 4, Example 5

This is you completely missing the point. Nobody in their right mind would deny that a person from another country is capable of committing a heinous crime. Likewise, nobody in their right mind is denying that someone born in America is capable of committing a heinous crime.

The problem is that the "deport them before they commit the crime" pre-cog anti-crime strategy falls prey to the exact same fallacy whether we're talking about people from another country or people born here. If I gave a few examples of left-handed white guys named Bob who have been found guilty of murder, and I used that as grounds for removing every last left-handed white Bob from the country (whether they like it or not), the error in my reasoning would become obvious. The error is the same when you try to do the same with right-handed brown guys named Juan.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I really, really, don't understand how deporting a violent criminal, possibly a murder or rapist, is supposed to be an adequate punishment, deterrent and way to make your society safer. What the people screaming for the deportation of "Illegal Aliens" are doing is demanding that the punitive justice system be replace by a Catch-and-Release system.
If you were, at all, concerned about protecting your society from criminals, you would make sure that criminals are arrested, tried and imprisoned; don't give the "alien drug dealer", who already demonstrated that they can enter the country illegal, the opportunity to do so again, now with the knowledge of the last experience.

None of this has ANYTHING to do with Crime - it's just racism, nothing else.

 

[johnny karate]

Unfortunately I don't think you've been following the news to be dismissing it out of hand like this. I could grab more, but best for me to manage how much time I spend on this vs the actual degree of discussion I can expect. Example 1, Example 2, Example 3, Example 4, Example 5


A broken clock is right twice a day. But in this case you're just using it as a convenient deflection tool.


First, the issue is two-fold. When you enter a country illegally (what you wash down to as "undocumented"), you have broken the law already, in most cases just by not entering the country through a designated port of entry. Then you had an administration actively encouraging it and refusing to enforce the laws leading to thousands of border crossings per day.
Secondly, Mexican cartels and smugglers exploited Biden era policies ad nauseum placing many more immigrants trying to cross the border at risk between how they have to pay the smugglers, and the risk incurred while relying on them to cross terrain on the way to the US.
Fourth, subsidized immigrant shelters
Fifth, gangs have exploited migrant sheltering repeatedly to operate while recruiting


Legally, they're not allowed to base detentions and deportations solely on either. They're required to evaluate other more significant factors. If these deportations do happen due to racial and ethnic characteristics solely or primarily, and it's demonstrated, I do not disagree with you that those cases need to be addressed as soon as possible.


It is an issue at the border because the volume of it (20 million people, 4 years) is directly influenced by years of policy that didn't enforce border security. The two are co-dependent on each other.

It takes a truly special person to vote for a criminal who made and fulfilled a campaign promise to set free violent criminals and then insist that because crime exists civil rights must be suspended.

 

[johnny karate]

I really, really, don't understand how deporting a violent criminal, possibly a murder or rapist, is supposed to be an adequate punishment, deterrent and way to make your society safer. What the people screaming for the deportation of "Illegal Aliens" are doing is demanding that the punitive justice system be replace by a Catch-and-Release system.
If you were, at all, concerned about protecting your society from criminals, you would make sure that criminals are arrested, tried and imprisoned; don't give the "alien drug dealer", who already demonstrated that they can enter the country illegal, the opportunity to do so again, now with the knowledge of the last experience.

None of this has ANYTHING to do with Crime - it's just racism, nothing else.

Confirmed by the fact that Trump's immigration policies make America less safe.

 

[Reformed Offlian]

It takes a truly special person to vote for a criminal who made and fulfilled a campaign promise to set free violent criminals and then insist that because crime exists civil rights must be suspended.

In addition to these examples being in the service of a morally repugnant policy proposal, they are also in the service of a lie: Grizzly Bear is trying to insinuate that these examples show that the evil Democrats ruling their sanctuary fiefdoms have a catch-and-release policy *specially* for illegal immigrants. But all these examples show is that people who get arrested but aren't charged right away get released (which is what is supposed to happen), that some of these people then go on to commit additional crimes or flee, and that some of *these* people are also in the country illegally.

And it's only the last bit that he cares about. Because it's totally not about race, so not about race, in fact, that he is willing to ignore addressing the more general problem of prosecutor's offices failing to make timely charging decisions.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well, at least one of them did murder at least one person. As to office holders, I recall a certain officeholder saying that there were "fine people" among that lot, and trying to bothsides the nonsense that happened there.

I would love it if people would take quotes in context. Trump is downright painful to try to listen to, but that's no reason to intentionally resort to mischaracterizations. That kind of behavior, particularly on the part of media, is fueling our current state.

In context, Trump condemned the neo-nazis. He talked about there being violent people on both sides of the situation, and that there were fine people on both sides as well. Because while some of the protestors were neo-nazis, a whole lot of them weren't - and it's irresponsible to vilify everyone present because of the actions of a few - wouldn't you agree?

 

[Emily's Cat]

The other thing about Charlottsville is not so much about the numbers but that they felt the political environment had changed enough that they felt comfortable to march and quote Nazi slogans

Yeah, that's the problem with free speech, isn't it? And freedom of belief? And the right to organize and protest?

It means that you have to let people you detest have the same freedoms that you wish for yourself.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Pretty sure most of you guys are forgetting that the party pushed someone who was clearly not healthy or cognitively fit to continue into a 2nd term.... almost to the last moment gambit... before then forcing him off the ticket and putting the VP on the ticket without any follow up primary. And the VP was herself a poor candidate.

That's all before the current ongoing vitriol members of the party are currently engaging in.

Some of you blame conservatives having for having better propaganda and fear mongering for it... I call it terrible management and planning on the part of party leadership. Half of the issues with the democratic ticket wouldn't have been so bad last cycle if they addressed Bidens health concerns early and held a proper primary with better candidates. Instead they spent all but the last 107 days of the campaign gaslighting everyone saying that everything was fine.

It's entirely possible that the democratic ticket might have WON last cycle had they not been in full denial and actually tried to primary for better candidates. But hindsight is 20/20 and I wager not everyone is keen to accept that assessment.

I do think that had a lot to do with it. I really do believe that if Biden had dropped out and a real primary occurred, Dems would have probably won this election.

But instead, we had a ton of Democrats and the media absolutely insisting that Biden was perfectly fine, smart as a whip, in the best cognitive state of their life, so on and so forth. All while the country watched the video clips and observed with their own eyes and their own ears that Biden was in mental decline. I suspect it left a whole lot of people who have no love for Trump (or even Republicans for that matter) sitting there wondering 'If they would lie to us about something so obvious, what else are they lying about that isn't so obvious?'

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'll acknowledge Trump says stupid things, and his comments about the "cats and dogs" are no exception. But baggage like this was already known and the scrutiny he got made him a known variable.

It doesn't absolve the fact that the media told bald faced lies to the electorate about Biden's fitness.
It doesn't absolve the fact that Democratic Leadership was complicit in those lies.
It doesn't absolve the fact that the left calls anyone that disagrees with them fascist sympathizers (reminder, Harris replaced Biden and was never put through any kind of voting process for her candidacy after the party threw Biden under the bus).
It doesn't absolve you or others of the willful ignorance to not acknowledge you were lied to, nor the unwillingness to discuss their general electoral shortcomings that were fixable.
It doesn't absolve your argument, the media or the democratic leadership of falsely painting half of the country as racist, sexist, homophobic, Hitler loving bigots (irresponsible rhetoric that motivated two assassination attempts on Trump, and a successful one on Charlie Kirk along with some parts of the population irrationally CELEBRATING it.)

Frankly, I'll reiterate that the election was winnable for Democrats if they addressed their campaigning issues a year or two earlier and kept a lid on hyper partisan progressives demonizing half of the country with outrageous hyperbole. But again, pointing this out constructively with you doesn't seem to be getting anywhere, and you've used up your allotment with me. So feel free to come up with whatever witty retort you want to finish this conversation

Your reasonable points will be lost on the partisan progressives on this site who seem to revel in demonizing half the country and vilifying anyone who doesn't agree with them. These are the folks who have labeled me far right because I'm just a classical liberal with a few socialist leanings for pragmatic purposes, but who also supports 2ndAm rights and wants the government to spend less money on stupid ◊◊◊◊.

 

[johnny karate]

I would love it if people would take quotes in context. Trump is downright painful to try to listen to, but that's no reason to intentionally resort to mischaracterizations. That kind of behavior, particularly on the part of media, is fueling our current state.

In context, Trump condemned the neo-nazis. He talked about there being violent people on both sides of the situation, and that there were fine people on both sides as well. Because while some of the protestors were neo-nazis, a whole lot of them weren't - and it's irresponsible to vilify everyone present because of the actions of a few - wouldn't you agree?

I love it when someone makes this argument because it's an opportunity for me to ask my favorite question:

Who are the "very fine people" who attended a white supremacist rally?

 

[johnny karate]

Yeah, that's the problem with free speech, isn't it? And freedom of belief? And the right to organize and protest?

It means that you have to let people you detest have the same freedoms that you wish for yourself.

Posts you've made defending the free speech of Nazis = At least 1.

Post you've made defending the free speech of Jimmy Kimmel = 0.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I do think that had a lot to do with it. I really do believe that if Biden had dropped out and a real primary occurred, Dems would have probably won this election.

But instead, we had a ton of Democrats and the media absolutely insisting that Biden was perfectly fine, smart as a whip, in the best cognitive state of their life, so on and so forth. All while the country watched the video clips and observed with their own eyes and their own ears that Biden was in mental decline. I suspect it left a whole lot of people who have no love for Trump (or even Republicans for that matter) sitting there wondering 'If they would lie to us about something so obvious, what else are they lying about that isn't so obvious?'

And yet these self same savy people never seemed to apply that critical thinking to Trump and his ilk, who would ONLY debate if they were allowed to lie unchecked.

 

[johnny karate]

I do think that had a lot to do with it. I really do believe that if Biden had dropped out and a real primary occurred, Dems would have probably won this election.

But instead, we had a ton of Democrats and the media absolutely insisting that Biden was perfectly fine, smart as a whip, in the best cognitive state of their life, so on and so forth. All while the country watched the video clips and observed with their own eyes and their own ears that Biden was in mental decline. I suspect it left a whole lot of people who have no love for Trump (or even Republicans for that matter) sitting there wondering 'If they would lie to us about something so obvious, what else are they lying about that isn't so obvious?'

Yes, people voted for Trump because they don't like liars. Totally tracks. Another brilliant observation about the 2024 election that completely comports with reality.

 

[johnny karate]

And yet these self same savy people never seemed to apply that critical thinking to Trump and his ilk, who would ONLY debate if they were allowed to lie unchecked.

Exactly. I would take these arguments more seriously if they weren't so laughably stupid on their face.

 

[I Am The Scum]

I would love it if people would take quotes in context. Trump is downright painful to try to listen to, but that's no reason to intentionally resort to mischaracterizations. That kind of behavior, particularly on the part of media, is fueling our current state.

In context, Trump condemned the neo-nazis. He talked about there being violent people on both sides of the situation, and that there were fine people on both sides as well. Because while some of the protestors were neo-nazis, a whole lot of them weren't - and it's irresponsible to vilify everyone present because of the actions of a few - wouldn't you agree?

No one who marches next to someone shouting "Jews will not replace us" is a fine person.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You mean, like what the Republicans are doing now?

Duh. Do you think that childish retaliation is the best thing we can do? Or do you, as a foreigner, have some vested interest in destabilizing the US? As a citizen of one of our closest allies, shouldn't you be hoping to keep us from a civil war?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't think it's my hate that motivated them. I'm pretty sure my hate never motivated anybody's actions other than my own. And I suspect the only hate that ever motivated Trump voters' actions was their own. Because that's how agency works.

Beg to differ.

One of the biggest problems with the Democratic party is their supporters and the amount of time they spend vilifying anyone who isn't as progressive as they feel everyone ought to be. It's the completely lack of tolerance from progressives, the lack of empathy from progressives, and it's the unceasing barrage of hatred from progressives. Especially since it's not exactly laser focused - it's scatter shot toward everyone who isn't progressive.

 

[Emily's Cat]

When did they say that the democrats didn't make any mistakes? As far as I can tell, most of the people on here who voted for them, thought not pressing Biden to drop out far earlier than he did was a huge mistake, for instance (I could name dozens more) To some degree, people vote both for and against something in most elections, but voting for Trump, and then blaming anything the democrats did, is bonkers. And so is Trump, plus a lot of other things that no one should want in a leader of one of the greatest powers in the world.

Roughly 85% of the posts in this thread have essentially proclaimed that Democrats didn't do anything wrong at all, it's just that most of Americans are evil racist bigots who are poo-poo heads.

Seriously, the entire premise of this thread was How did Dems screw up what should have been a slam dunk, and what do Dems need to do differently next time around.