What did Democrats do wrong?

[wareyin]

It's one thing that always baffles me as a dutch citizen.
When we have to vote we get a voting form, which can be brought to any voting booth in our municipality, or which can be converted into one that can be brought to any voting booth in the country for those that need to commute a long way.
There are voting areas within walking range in any city/town/village. Usually about three at equal distance.
And you can vote at all major train stations.
There may be lines, but I've never seen one longer than 5-10 minutes.
A passport or drivers license is enough ID when combined with the form which was mailed to your address.
And of course you can vote by mail.

Sure, the US is larger, but the voting booths are organized by the local city councils, so the size should not matter.

Yet somehow the bestest country in the world is unable to get their act together to allow for smooth voting.

It's almost like one of our 2 parties is actively working to make voting as difficult, costly, time-consuming, and irritating as possible. And it's almost like that same party doing so has explicitly said that they want fewer people to be allowed to vote because when more people vote they know they will lose.

Almost...

 

[W.D.Clinger]

So far we have people scoffing at disenfranchising literally millions of people because they found 4 instances of fraud that voter ID wouldn't even have prevented. That tells you how honest their stated concerns are.

Honesty is not the point.

For most, the goal is to make it harder for the wrong people to vote.

For a few, the goal is to convince yourself that your motives are purer than anyone else's. Whether anyone else can be convinced of that is beside the point. If someone disagrees, that just goes to show your motives are purer than theirs.

 

[bruto]

It's one thing that always baffles me as a dutch citizen.
When we have to vote we get a voting form, which can be brought to any voting booth in our municipality, or which can be converted into one that can be brought to any voting booth in the country for those that need to commute a long way.
There are voting areas within walking range in any city/town/village. Usually about three at equal distance.
And you can vote at all major train stations.
There may be lines, but I've never seen one longer than 5-10 minutes.
A passport or drivers license is enough ID when combined with the form which was mailed to your address.
And of course you can vote by mail.

Sure, the US is larger, but the voting booths are organized by the local city councils, so the size should not matter.

Yet somehow the bestest country in the world is unable to get their act together to allow for smooth voting.

I don't think inability is the problem.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Then, armed and masked thugs weren't going around cities assaulting and murdering American citizens with a promise that they have Federal immunity for whatever they can get away with.

You know, ICE isn't actually running amok just randomly assaulting and murdering tons of people, right? IIRC (and I may not) there have been two citizens killed, both in Minneapolis.

But let's unpack that just a teensy bit, and get our heads around what the situation is, and how we got here.

Under various names, we've had immigration enforcement with the authority to deport anyone not legally in the US for over a century, since the late 1800s. That's a real, pre-existing federal branch of law enforcement, enacting actual real federal law.

A bit over a decade ago, as illegal immigration began to rise materially... some cities in the US took it upon themselves to decide that they would no longer recognize the authority of those immigration officers, and would no longer comply with federal law. They named themselves sanctuary cities, and defied federal law. Interestingly, the degree of defiance seems to wax and wane with the party in the oval office. When Democrats are in office, those cities just refused to serve up and inform ICE (or its prior versions) when they had apprehended an illegal alien. But if ICE showed up with a deportation order, they didn't get in the way. Pretty much they just said "it's not our job, you do it".

But under republican administrations, and especially under Trump, those cities have begun to actively and intentionally interfere with federal law enforcement. The block deportations, they refuse to provide information when asked, and they explicitly tout themselves as being a sanctuary for illegal immigrants where those illegals will be protected from federal law.

Minneapolis started protesting before ICE had actually done anything. They've been protesting ICE since days after Trump took office, as soon as Trump set out a plan to actively enforce immigration law. And those "protests" have continuously become more and more unhinged over the past year. The governor and various politicians have been actively encouraging and supporting intentional interference with ICE. They have been egging on citizens following, harassing, and threatening federal law enforcement agents. Activist groups have arranged widespread plans to interfere with ICE, to aid and abet those that ICE is seeking to apprehend, to identify ICE agents with the intention of harassing and threatening their families. They follow ICE agents and yell, scream, blow loud whistles, taunt, insult, and otherwise be complete and utter ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ to federal agents. They block agents in with vehicles, they set up barricades, they vandalize EVERYONE's cars and buildings.

This has been going on in Minneapolis for an entire year. And out of that there have been two incidents where ICE agents lost their minds and killed someone. I'm not excusing that - those agents should face criminal charges for it.

But realistically, at this point we've had a solid six years of deep blue cities making it their life's mission to antagonize and harass law enforcement, to actively interfere in both local and federal enforcement activities. That is a crime. It is a crime to obstruct justice or to interfere with public duties, it's a crime to threaten and harass law enforcement officers for doing their jobs.

So it's not like ICE just woke up one morning and said "Oh hey, you know what would be fun? Let's go kill some random people!" It's been years of concerted harassments and illegal activity that has been politely tolerated over and over and over.

But now we're at a point where politicians and activist leaders in Minneapolis (among other cities) have been literally and unquestionably inciting their populace to engage in criminal activity and to defy federal law. It sucks. It should never have come to this. But those cities and their politicians bear a significant part of the responsibility for intentionally creating this situation.

Minneapolis has decided it wants to cosplay as a sovereign citizen and declare that it doesn't recognize federal authority to enact federal law. It's irresponsible of the leaders of those cities to use their citizens as pawns in their own political shenanigans.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The Republican administration's clear, stated intention is to provoke ordinary citizens into violent retaliation against Federal agents.

Can you provide evidence of this "clear stated intention"?

Because it rather seems like the democrat leaders of these areas have been inciting insurrection and rebellion against federal law enforcement for over a year now, harassing and threatening and interfering with those officers until they can create an incident that they can milk for every ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ drop.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Again, this indicates that it isn't about immigration - there are thousands more undocumented immigrants in Texas and Florida than there are in Minnesota (of all places) - it's about compliance with the Regime. Texas and Florida bow down before the Overlord, and that's why the Overlord doesn't send his jackbooted thugs there.

Oh FFS. Texas and Florida don't "bow down" you numpty. They simply cooperate with federal law enforcement enacting federal law.

Funny how the people who just a few years ago were all for "State's Rights" are now saying "Comply with the Federal regime or die".

You really don't know what you're talking about. States Rights are limited to those things which are NOT federal law. States do NOT have a right to VIOLATE federal law, and they never have. States have the right to make whatever laws they wish provided that those laws 1) do not violate constitutionally guaranteed rights and 2) do not violate federal law.

This rhetoric is absurd. It's not "comply with the federal regime or die" - that's language designed to intentionally incite violence and insurrection, to create a civil war - and shame on you for parroting it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

No, I'm contending that Texas and Florida are bending down and kissing the boots of the Regime. Pleasing the Master is all they care about.


Irrelevant. Texas and Florida, despite many decades of rhetoric to the contrary, don't actually care about freedom or liberty when the Master orders them to comply. They'll take the whip and they'll like it and ask for more.

It's hilarious that you, a foreigner, seem to feel that you're super well versed on both US law, actual ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊ freedom, and the partisan conflicts of the US. Seriously, stop lapping up whatever incendiary rhetoric you're being fed.

Texas and Florida are doing nothing more than cooperating with federal law enforcement. That's all.

Why are you so invested in inciting a civil war in the US? What's in it for you?

 

[theprestige]

Again, this indicates that it isn't about immigration - there are thousands more undocumented immigrants in Texas and Florida than there are in Minnesota (of all places) - it's about compliance with the Regime. Texas and Florida bow down before the Overlord, and that's why the Overlord doesn't send his jackbooted thugs there.

Funny how the people who just a few years ago were all for "State's Rights" are now saying "Comply with the Federal regime or die".

I'm sure politics plays a part, but there's also a practical difference.

One of the most important things a sanctuary jurisdiction does, is its courts do not turn over non-citizen defendants to ICE once the local court is done with them. This is typically called an "ICE detainer", and involves the local court either keeping the defendant in custody until ICE can come get them, or else ordering the defendant to be transferred to an ICE facility once they've served their time with that court.

But sanctuary jurisdictions don't honor ICE detainers. An illegal immigrant gets arrested for DUI, or whatever misdemeanor, they get a fine, or probation, or whatever slap on the wrist, and are back on the streets again.

So in practical terms, states like Texas and Florida that honor ICE detainers are doing a substantial part of ICE's apprehension work.* Minnesota, a sanctuary jurisdiction, isn't doing that part of ICE's job. The obvious consequence of being a sanctuary jurisdiction is that ICE has to come in themselves, hit the streets, and carry out their own detentions.

This leaves Sanctuary Agonistes everywhere in the very silly position of (a) refusing to help ICE do their job, and (b) acting all shocked and horrified when ICE does the job themselves. That's the practical reason Texas and Florida aren't swarming with ICE agents - because those states are swarming with cops who deliver perps to courts that honor ICE detainers.

(Note that this is a generalization; the actual "sanctuary" status across the state of Minnesota varies somewhat by local jurisdiction.)

---

*And they're apprehending actual criminals! Not just randos!

 

[Emily's Cat]

Your inserted correction is wrong. Federal law requires every state to verify eligibility for federal elections. Whether it is done via automated backend checks or manual review, citizenship verification happens in every state, not just "some."

It is also incredibly disingenuous to "not be clear" on how proactive registration and easy access would hurt the GOP. You are defending a party that spends millions on litigation and legislation specifically to make registration more difficult and voting more onerous. They do not do that for fun. They do it because their own data shows that when more people have easy, proactive access to the booth, they lose.

You claim to want a system that is "the same everywhere," but you only support uniformity when it involves placing hurdles in front of voters. If you actually wanted a secure, uniform, and trustworthy system, you would be advocating for the government to take the burden off the citizen and handle registration themselves. The fact that you only want "strictness" that creates barriers proves that your goal is not integrity. It is exclusion.

Oh ◊◊◊◊◊◊◊◊. You're assertion of what I want is contradicted by positions I've stated in this very thread.

I want secure identification and citizenship verification handled at the federal level, funded at the federal level, including issuance of a valid citizen ID at the federal level. I want secure mail-in or electronic voting made available across the country. I want voting to be moved to a weekend, and employers required to provide sufficient time off for weekend workers to go to in-person polls if they wish.

So please stop making stuff up.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's one thing that always baffles me as a dutch citizen.
When we have to vote we get a voting form, which can be brought to any voting booth in our municipality, or which can be converted into one that can be brought to any voting booth in the country for those that need to commute a long way.
There are voting areas within walking range in any city/town/village. Usually about three at equal distance.
And you can vote at all major train stations.
There may be lines, but I've never seen one longer than 5-10 minutes.
A passport or drivers license is enough ID when combined with the form which was mailed to your address.
And of course you can vote by mail.

Sure, the US is larger, but the voting booths are organized by the local city councils, so the size should not matter.

Yet somehow the bestest country in the world is unable to get their act together to allow for smooth voting.

The Netherlands is approximately the same size as Maryland. Maryland is the 42nd largest state, out of 50. I think you're severely understimating the impact that size has. Imagine trying to get efficient voting across the entirety of western europe... when each country has slightly different methods of voting, different means of verifying eligibility for voting, and different degrees of strictness or laxity with regards to who can vote and how.

We absolutely should be able to to it better... but until voting is managed federally it's going to continue to be a problem.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Americans, as a general rule, are only interested in solving problems if it benefits them, personally.

Sure, sure, we don't solve any of the problems faced by any other country in the entire world. I suppose we should just take our military and go home, and leave you all to the whims of Russia, China, and Iran. Good luck with that.

 

[bruto]

I'm comforted by the assurance that the violence and murder perpetrated by ICE is not random. Don't worry. They're aiming. You probably deserve it.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Sure, sure, we don't solve any of the problems faced by any other country in the entire world. I suppose we should just take our military and go home, and leave you all to the whims of Russia, China, and Iran. Good luck with that.

Every time an Administration says it will solve America's problems it inevitably moves to intervening in global conflicts instead - because fixing the US for most people is hard when it's doing great for billionaires.

America is not using it's military to protect other countries - it's to shovel money to defense contractors and distract from domestic issues.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Sure, sure, we don't solve any of the problems faced by any other country in the entire world. I suppose we should just take our military and go home, and leave you all to the whims of Russia, China, and Iran. Good luck with that.

And that's different from what Trump is doing now?
Oh wait, I see, you'd NOT be threatening your former allies with annexing their lands.
Sure, do that.

 

[arthwollipot]

*And they're apprehending actual criminals! Not just randos!

Thank you for acknowledging that they aren't apprehending actual criminals in Minnesota, rather they are apprehending randos.

 

[jimbob]

It's one thing that always baffles me as a dutch citizen.
When we have to vote we get a voting form, which can be brought to any voting booth in our municipality, or which can be converted into one that can be brought to any voting booth in the country for those that need to commute a long way.
There are voting areas within walking range in any city/town/village. Usually about three at equal distance.
And you can vote at all major train stations.
There may be lines, but I've never seen one longer than 5-10 minutes.
A passport or drivers license is enough ID when combined with the form which was mailed to your address.
And of course you can vote by mail.

Sure, the US is larger, but the voting booths are organized by the local city councils, so the size should not matter.

Yet somehow the bestest country in the world is unable to get their act together to allow for smooth voting.

Not dissimilar to my experience having voted in safe Labour, safe Tory, and marginal constituencies in the UK in the last 30 plus years of elections.

The elections are overseen by an independent body, there is a recommended size for the number of voters served by a polling station, with additional measures if it's above this. The polling station is open from 7am to 10pm, but if there's a queue to vote at 10pm and you are in the queue, you will be allowed to vote.

The ballots are pencil and paper with candidates or their representatives overseeing the count . The ballots are numbered so could be traced in case of fraud, but because it is all on paper, it isn't straightforward, so it is anonymous unless there is an investigation into suspected fraud.

I have rarely had even half a dozen people in front of me in the queue to vote including elections with a high turn out.

We also have the option of voting by mail, but unlike the Netherlands, we are tied to a particular polling station. Which makes sense as when we go to vote, we go to a desk based on our address range and have our name crossed out when we get our ballot. That is also where the effective anonymity meets possible identification as the ballot number is written beside our name at that time. But to find out how I voted you would have to search through all the votes and cross reference it to the sheet of paper.

It's a system that is easy to understand and has no hidden electronics that could be subverted. It's not only robust it can be seen to be robust. Any subversion would have to be physical.