What did Democrats do wrong?

[Mongrel]

Which is totally why you're fighting to change UK law and eliminate the requirement for id when voting, right? Right?

How to vote

An overview of voting in the UK, including voting in person, postal and proxy voting, and voting if you're abroad.

www.gov.uk

While it was poorly advertised, and the normal problem of elderly & computer usage, there was a free and easy solution available.
All it required was to take a picture in front of a neutral background and fill in a form on the internet, a week later you had a photo ID turn up in the post. I had to e-mail the council because I forgot whether I was registered as just First Last name or if they had my middle name as well, added half a day to the process.

No extra paperwork or the circle of having to prove who I was before being able to get an ID to prove who I was, just using the electoral roll.

While I disagree with the need for ID it's at least been implemented in the least onerous way possible.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

But not when they turn up to vote. My next door neighbour could turn up and vote as me - as no ID is require at the polling booth. e.g., at the point where the vote is registered.

In the UK if two people attempt to use the same vote (or one person is suspected of using two votes) the police attend and investigate. If the legitimate voter voted first, that's you caught on the spot. The risk/reward ratio sucks.

 

[Random]

In the UK if two people attempt to use the same vote (or one person is suspected of using two votes) the police attend and investigate. If the legitimate voter voted first, that's you caught on the spot. The risk/reward ratio sucks.

Yup. If you are looking to rig an election, in person voter fraud is the riskiest and least efficient way to do it. Much better off bribing poll workers, sabotaging voting machines, etc.

Of course, if you are rich enough, you just bribe both candidates and go to bed early on election day.

 

[Mongrel]

Dude, in the US you don't even need to prove you're citizen when you register (unlike Australia and the UK). Just check a box. That's it. So you get this:

Michigan clerk reports non-citizens in state voter records, calls for review

This is the form required to register to vote in the UK (opens a PDF), it's not much more than Name, Address, Nationality and National Insurance number with a "I understand it's an offence if I give incorrect information" at the bottom, you can also fill this in online.

No ID required to register and it takes less than five minutes if you've got the information to hand

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Yup. If you are looking to rig an election, in person voter fraud is the riskiest and least efficient way to do it. Much better off bribing poll workers, sabotaging voting machines, etc.

Of course, if you are rich enough, you just bribe both candidates and go to bed early on election day.

Or, if you own the media/social media you can flood the electorate with misinformation.

 

[Thermal]

But not when they turn up to vote. My next door neighbour could turn up and vote as me - as no ID is require at the polling booth. e.g., at the point where the vote is registered.

Over here, too, but in my state (NJ USA) they do an on-the-spot signature match against the signature in their records. It's not foolproof, as many can passably forge a sig if they know what it looks like, but we are just not having that problem.

We don't require the applicant to actually prove citizenship at point of registration, but every applicant is verified externally through govt records as being a US citizen prior to being put on the rolls.

A ways back, my fair state had it's Republican operatives running a voter caging hustle that was pulling tens of thousands of predominately black voters from the rolls en masse. That's the kind of thing we need to watch out for, and this "OMG we need gov't issued ID for voting" is just the same hustle with a new haircut.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

They didn't cheat enough.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Over here, too, but in my state (NJ USA) they do an on-the-spot signature match against the signature in their records. It's not foolproof, as many can passably forge a sig if they know what it looks like, but we are just not having that problem.

It doesn't need to be foolproof, the effort and risk just needs to outweigh the reward of 'one vote'. It's a pretty low bar tbh.

 

[Thermal]

It doesn't need to be foolproof, the effort and risk just needs to outweigh the reward of 'one vote'. It's a pretty low bar tbh.

Oh, absolutely agreed. I'm just acknowledging that at the point of voting, it is pretty weak security. But it just doesn't matter, because no one bothers. Too much work/risk for too little payout, as you say.

There is also the risk of being physically recognized at the polls while you are posing as someone else. The polling place I vote at is staffed at least partially by actual local people. I say hi to some of my neighbors working the ballot desk.

 

[dirtywick]

i mean, if there are a bunch of illegals voting in elections to rig it for the dems, nobody has figured out how. and it's not for a lack of trying on trump's end. he brought like 60 lawsuits in 9 states and lost every single one of them and his entire legal team was disbarred for lying so much about it

it's weird because this whole discussion seems to be happening in an imaginary universe where none of that happened.

 

[wareyin]

That is not the central point, the central point is "what did dems do wrong". Repeating arguments that don't seem to convince any voters is one of those mistakes.

ETA: By your own admission, you need the same things to get a job(legally) as you need to get a photo ID. Typically, a government issued photo ID or, something from Column A and something from Column B. And you keep calling them expensive as though repeating it makes true and convincing. So, not convincing anyone that doesn't already agree with you. I'm sure the right does this too; I just don't particularly want them to convince anyone to vote for them currently.

The central point in this tangent is that you have assumed for no reason that voter ID is a necessity, and you are demanding that I prove to you it is a hardship to the 21 million people for whom it is a hardship. Because it is not hard for you, you cannot understand why it would be hard for people without your level of comfort, money, and time.

This demonstrates why it is difficult for Democrats to reach those who lack the ability to empathize with anyone less fortunate than they are. When a bad idea such as voter ID gets stuck in a mind, it becomes an assumption that requires no justification. You are arguing for an extra burden that does nothing to solve any problem.

By the way, your point about employment proves my case. You do not need a photo ID to get a job legally. According to the federal I-9 form, a Social Security card and a birth certificate are perfectly sufficient. Further, millions of people survive and work every day without ever touching an I-9 form. They work under the table, they sell items online, they do gig work, or they work for family.

They have the legal documents to prove who they are, but they do not have the specific, expensive piece of plastic you want to require. If you cannot see how a $30 document and a trip to the DMV is a hurdle for a person in poverty or an elderly citizen without a car, you aren't looking for a convincing argument. You are just using your own ability to afford it as a baseline for everyone else.

 

[Thermal]

<respectful snip for focus>...They have the legal documents to prove who they are, but they do not have the specific, expensive piece of plastic you want to require. If you cannot see how a $30 document and a trip to the DMV is a hurdle for a person in poverty or an elderly citizen without a car, you aren't looking for a convincing argument. You are just using your own ability to afford it as a baseline for everyone else.

My oldest kid didn't get her driver's license when she was a teen, because she hated driving and knew she was off to college where they wouldn't allow you to even have a car, so it just wasn't high on her priority list (we also lived in an area where you didn't need to drive much). Getting her 'free' ID card to allow her to vote turned out to be a massive headache, and we had her birth certificate and other paperwork and were not what you would call poor. It stretched across a couple months with making appointments and once being denied because the form that indicated 'points of ID' (different docs carry different values) required had changed between the time that she got the form and the time she went in, and she was a point short and had to reschedule. She turned 18 just before going away to college, so by then she was living in a different (far away) county to attend school by this point and it got much more complicated than the 'free and easy' ID BS that gets promoted here. If it was just a little closer to election time, she wouldn't have gotten it resolved in time to vote.

If anyone thinks that government does anything free and easy, I'd say they hadn't dealt with government much.

 

[dirtywick]

pretty sure i didn't need to present a photo id to my job until i needed to get authorized to drive the company van. they had my social for tax purposes and did a background check with some info on a form i filled out.

yeah you don't need an id to get a job. that's not correct.

 

[wareyin]

My oldest kid didn't get her driver's license when she was a teen, because she hated driving and knew she was off to college where they wouldn't allow you to even have a car, so it just wasn't high on her priority list (we also lived in an area where you didn't need to drive much). Getting her 'free' ID card to allow her to vote turned out to be a massive headache, and we had her birth certificate and other paperwork and were not what you would call poor. It stretched across a couple months with making appointments and once being denied because the form that indicated 'points of ID' (different docs carry different values) required had changed between the time that she got the form and the time she went in, and she was a point short and had to reschedule. She turned 18 just before going away to college, so by then she was living in a different (far away) county to attend school by this point and it got much more complicated than the 'free and easy' ID BS that gets promoted here. If it was just a little closer to election time, she wouldn't have gotten it resolved in time to vote.

If anyone thinks that government does anything free and easy, I'd say they hadn't dealt with government much.

Yeah, I posted about my and my wife's issues getting ID with the proper documentation several pages ago. It can be a massive pain in the ass, and that is exactly the point. Make it hard, and a certain number of people will not bother doing it. The GOP knows that its platform is unpopular, so the plan is to reduce the number of people who can vote rather than change the platform to be better for more people.

The story about your daughter is the perfect example. It isn't just about the money; it is the time sinking hassle of government bureaucracy. Anyone pretending that a visit to the DMV (or DDS here in GA) is a minor, easy errand is either lying or has completely forgotten their last visit. It is a feature, not a bug. They want to make the process of exercising a right feel like a second job because they know that for many people, that is enough of a barrier to keep them away from the polls.

 

[Planigale]

But in Australia (and in the UK), you have to prove you are a citizen to register. In the US, there's just a box to check and no verification. You can register your cat.

Actually you don't have to be a British citizen to vote in general elections,

To vote in a general election you must:

• be registered to vote
• be 18 or over on the day of the election (‘polling day’)
• be a British, Irish or qualifying Commonwealth citizen
• be resident at an address in the UK or living abroad and registered as an overseas voter
• not be legally excluded from voting

Qualifying commonwealth citizens have to be legal residents and citizems of a commonwealth country, including Australia, Canada, Nigeria, Kenya, Cyprus, Pakistan, Zambia etc. Pretty much the same group can be MPs. Mine used to be a nice New Zealander.

ETA It appears that you could e.g. be Nigerian, and if you had right of residence in the UK, but were studying in the US you would be entitled to a postal vote in a UK general election.

 

[ahhell]

pretty sure i didn't need to present a photo id to my job until i needed to get authorized to drive the company van. they had my social for tax purposes and did a background check with some info on a form i filled out.

yeah you don't need an id to get a job. that's not correct.

Work Documents: What Do You Need for Employment in the US?

When onboarding a new employee, make sure to have them fill out these important documents.

www.indeed.com

I have on a couple of occasions, gotten the job and said I'll bring it in later then forgotten but you need ID or the documents that are necessary to get ID.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Yes really. My wife and I voted in a number of local and federal elections and referenda without being British citizens.
We were residents of the UK and citizens of the Commonwealth, but not UK citizens

You're splitting hairs in a way that's completely immaterial. You're trying to make some meaningful distinction between UK citizen and Commonwealth Citizen... while attempting to falsely make that seem as if "not a UK citizen" is equivalent to "no citizenship requirement".

 

[Emily's Cat]

But in Australia (and in the UK), you have to prove you are a citizen to register. In the US, there's just a box to check and no verification. You can register your cat.

No, no no! You just have to trust that every state and district is completely verifying citizenship for every person, tying together their utility bills and school transcripts in order to make sure that they're actually citizens! It's absolutely foolproof in every single region, dontchaknow?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Such a massive problem. A whole four votes.

I see the discussion has moved from "It doesn't happen" to "It happens but it's not a big deal" stage.

 

[Planigale]

You're splitting hairs in a way that's completely immaterial. You're trying to make some meaningful distinction between UK citizen and Commonwealth Citizen... while attempting to falsely make that seem as if "not a UK citizen" is equivalent to "no citizenship requirement".

Also for local elections resident EU citizens can vote.

It comes down to no taxation without representation, if you are taxed you should be able to vote.