What did Democrats do wrong?

[Trausti]

Wow, amazing. Just take pretty much everything I wrote and dismiss it with a giant wave of your hand.

Glad you think ID is "easy to get". I am sure whatever experience YOU had getting whatever photo ID you use will be completely identical to everybody elses situation.

People are not as incompetent as you suppose them to be.

 

[Segnosaur]

Not sure if its as high as 10%, but you have the following groups of (potential) voters who will have trouble casing their ballots:

- Those with felony convictions in states that bar felons from voting. (~2% of american Citizens)

Disagreeing with state-level laws that disallow incarcerated felons from voting, or impose a waiting period before their right to vote is reinstated is a worthwhile discussion. But that's not illegally preventing them from voting, it's legally preventing them from voting.

Which is something I admitted to in my previous post when I wrote:
Now technically these people weren't "illegally" denied their right to vote, its just that the laws were written to be unfair to them.

So "legal"? Maybe. Wrong/immoral/anti-democratic? Most definitely.

Personally, I think it's a pointless and dumb idea to not let them vote, but it's not illegal. Nor is it preventing them from voting based on their skin color.

While its not a direct "you cannot vote because you are a minority", race still plays a role in it.

Black and hispanic people make up a larger proportion of prison inmates relative to their population demographics. So denying felons the right to vote will disenfranchise more minorities than white people.

- People who's names were "purged" from voter roles for various reasons (for example, name matches that of convicted felon even if the person is not related)

That would be a mistake, and I agree that mistakes should be fixed. This doesn't seem to meet Gulliver's description though.

Not really sure why you think that doesn't fit his definition.

You have a large number of people removed from the voter roles for no legitimate reason. While they could "fight" to get re-instated, such a legal battle might not be done in time to properly get their vote re-established.

You know that the vast majority of democratic countries on the planet require voter ids, don't you?

Canada does not require photo IDs. And our democracy is perfectly fine.

Oh, and before you go and claim "But country X requires photo ID."... keep in mind that the history, demographics and government processing of IDs in those other countries may be substantially different for those other countries.

I don't think current laws are intended to be unfair to them.

Except of course in many cases the laws requiring photo id were written by republicans to specifically target demographics that traditionally support Democrats.

Requiring ID to vote isn't unfair

If you have to go though significantly extra effort to vote (e.g. spend a day government offices to get the proper ID lined up, possibly pay for supporting documentation, etc.) compared to someone else, then it is unfair.

it's the standard in most democratic countries - you can only vote once, and you have to be a citizen to vote... and you have to demonstrate that those two things are true.

Which of course has nothing to do with whether a person has photo ID.

You get registered to vote, something that can be done without having photo ID... the polling place keeps track of who has already voted.
(Oh, and I have no object to requiring non-photo ID... something like a utility bill to show proof of address.)

Additionally, almost all citizens who are of voting age have IDs.

The operative word there is "almost". There are literally MILLIONS of americans of voting age who do not have valid government-issue photo ID. Many haven't needed it in their day to day lives.

DL is the most common, but it's not the only form of ID that is acceptable. You know that black people in the US drive cars and buy houses and travel, don't you? Like pretty regularly. And those all require IDs.

Yes, plenty of minorities drive/travel/etc. But not all do.

Heck, I didn't get a driver's license until I was around 30, and I didn't have a passport until years after that. I didn't drink (so I didn't need ID to buy alcohol).

Fortunately I live in a real country, so I had no problem voting. But if I lived in some of the more backwards areas of the US I would not have been able to vote for over a decade.

 

[Segnosaur]

People are not as incompetent as you suppose them to be.

Once again... it is not a case of incompetence. It is a case of opportunity and resources.

Telling someone "you have to take a day off work go sit in the DMV office for a day in order to get a photo ID" for the sole purpose of voting is a burden you should not be putting on people.

(Link to fox news clip removed)

You know, I am not going to waste my time watching it.

Its fox news. The propaganda arm of the republican party. The cable network that had to say they were "entertainment not news". Nobody here should be trusting them. Why are you wasting time pushing that bunk?

 

[Trausti]

Once again... it is not a case of incompetence. It is a case of opportunity and resources.

Telling someone "you have to take a day off work go sit in the DMV office for a day in order to get a photo ID" for the sole purpose of voting is a burden you should not be putting on people.

It wouldn't be for the sole purpose of voting, would it? Are you new to the planet?

You know, I am not going to waste my time watching it.

Its fox news. The propaganda arm of the republican party. The cable network that had to say they were "entertainment not news". Nobody here should be trusting them. Why are you wasting time pushing that bunk?

So when the Black people in the video said it was silly to believe they were too stupid to get I.D., that was bunk?

 

[Segnosaur]

Once again... it is not a case of incompetence. It is a case of opportunity and resources.

Telling someone "you have to take a day off work go sit in the DMV office for a day in order to get a photo ID" for the sole purpose of voting is a burden you should not be putting on people.

It wouldn't be for the sole purpose of voting, would it? Are you new to the planet?

Yes it would be for the sole purpose of voting.

Once again, THERE ARE MILLIONS OF VOTING AGE AMERICANS WHO SURVIVE AND LIVE FULL, PRODUCTIVE LIVES WITHOUT HAVING "VALID" GOVERNMENT PHOTO ID.

I have provided references to academic sources that support that.

If they got this photo ID, it would not be needed for their day to day lives, because, as I pointed out, those millions of people haven't needed it so far. The ONLY thing they will need it for is to vote.

Why are people so stupid about this? They keep claiming "You need photo ID to survive". I provide a reference to show that millions of people survive WITHOUT photo ID. They then stick their fingers in their ears and shout "la la la I cannot hear you".

So when the Black people in the video said it was silly to believe they were too stupid to get I.D., that was bunk?

Its bunk because it is not a claim that was ever made. NOBODY here claimed black people were "too stupid" to get voter ID.

Fox new is not to be trusted. Why exactly are you posting a reference to it?

 

[wareyin]

In my personal experience, getting an ID isn't always a simple task. I once lost my birth certificate during a move. When I tried to replace it, I discovered that because my original was hand-written, the person who eventually entered it into the computer database had changed my name. My parents were not married; my original birth certificate only listed my father’s surname as my name, but the new database entry added my mother’s surname. Because all my previous documentation had been obtained using the hand-written version, nothing matched anymore. Resolving that was an incredible hassle that required significant time and multiple visits to government offices.

My spouse also faced hurdles. She was married and divorced before marrying me. To get her documentation here in Georgia, she had to provide her birth certificate plus her previous marriage license, her divorce decree, and our current marriage license. Because her divorce was unpleasant, she had destroyed the original marriage license from that first marriage. Obtaining a new one required both the cost of the copy and weeks of waiting for the county clerk to process the request and mail it.

Don't tell me getting an ID is just so easy.

 

[dirtywick]

obviously elderly or disabled people, particularly the poor, may have difficulties as well

 

[wareyin]

Furthermore, the 2015 closure of 33 out of 67 DMVs in Alabama, primarily in majority black counties, shows how physical access is restricted. This is paired with actions like the 2016 North Carolina laws, which a federal court found targeted black voters with "surgical precision." These aren't accidents; they are clear efforts to disenfranchise specific groups.

Even if you have the right ID, the hurdles continue. My brother was purged from the voter rolls in 2020 despite having voted in every single statewide election for years. The official reason given was inactivity, which was demonstrably false. He happened to check his status ahead of the election in time to fix it, but many people don't realize they have been purged until they show up at the polls.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If you are (relatively) poor, you won't have a car. So no need for a driver's license. You won't be travelling internationally, so no need for a passport. If you're old enough you wont be 'carded' when you try to buy booze. And if you are (for example) a student or married, you will have family who might do the things that "require" a photo ID.

This is silly. Yes, perhaps a poor person doesn't have a car, and therefore doesn't need a driver's license. But DL isn't the only kind of ID out there. And you still need an ID to rent an apartment, get a job, file taxes, claim social benefits, and dozens of other aspects of everyday life.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If you don't drive or travel internationally you won't need a driver's license or passport. If you're old enough you won't have to need it to buy alcohol. I do most of my banking on-line so its not like I need it to verify myself at the bank.

I'm betting that your bank required some sort of identification in order to set up your account in the first place. Something that demonstrates that you are who you say you are.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You know, I am not going to waste my time watching it.

You really, really should. Because the piles of middle class white people absolutely dedicated to saving black people from having to have IDs is a pile of absolute echo-chamber ignorance. It's up there with "latinx", a term invented by white liberals to "help" hispanic people, and which hispanic people think is ignorant and offensive.

Got talk to minority citizens. You keep going on about how it's so hard for minorities to get legitimate state IDs, and you're talking out of your backside. You're so concerned about a hypothetical teensy outlier situation where two dozen people are so poor and so uneducated and unemployed and homeless and have never rented an apartment and have never had a job and have never, ever had to do the entirely normal commonplace activity of getting a state ID... that you're quite willing to let the voting process be exploited and weakened.

And every bit of it is based on sheer arrogance wrapped up with ignorance.

 

[Emily's Cat]

duplicate

 

[Segnosaur]

This is silly. Yes, perhaps a poor person doesn't have a car, and therefore doesn't need a driver's license. But DL isn't the only kind of ID out there.

First of all, lets get one thing straight... the concern is over the use of PHOTO id for voting, not just "identification in general'.

Secondly, as I asked before, maybe you can tell me:

WHAT MAKES PEOPLE GO SO STUPID OVER THIS ISSUE?

I have provided references from reputable/academic sources that show that millions of people live without photo ID. MILLIONS. I think a reputable source that has actually developed statistics showing millions of people existing without photo ID trumps whatever empty-headed claims you might make regarding "I think you need photo ID".

So again, why are you so stupid on this issue?

And you still need an ID to rent an apartment

Ummm... people might be living with family (like, you know, sons/daughters living with parents, or people living with spouses). They may be subletting (like, for example, a student living with a room mate while going to college.)

You can also have people 'grandfathered in'... they had an ID at one point, but it expired and they had no need to renew it.

(And that is of course assuming it is correct you "need an ID to rent an apartment". I haven't rented for decades, but when I did I never need to show photo ID.

get a job

Students might not have jobs. Stay-at-home spouses. Retired people.

file taxes,

You do not need photo ID to file taxes.

claim social benefits

Not everyone claims social benefits. Students (especially ones under their parent's health insurance) don't need medicare/medicade or welfare. And again, some people may have had valid id to claim benefits in the past but their ID has expired since then.

and dozens of other aspects of everyday life.

Are they as idiotic as your other "claims" about why you NEED photo ID, despite the fact that MILLIONS OF PEOPLE LIVE FULL LIVES WITHOUT IT!

I'm betting that your bank required some sort of identification in order to set up your account in the first place. Something that demonstrates that you are who you say you are.

No photo ID required. I did need to provide a social insurance number (for tax purposes).

Plus, as I keep pointing out, but which the empty-headed people here seem not to understand: SOME PEOPLE ARE GRANDFATHERED IN! They had valid ID at one point, but the ID has expired, and since they don't need it to do day-to-day banking they don't see a need to update it.

 

[wareyin]

This is silly. Yes, perhaps a poor person doesn't have a car, and therefore doesn't need a driver's license. But DL isn't the only kind of ID out there. And you still need an ID to rent an apartment, get a job, file taxes, claim social benefits, and dozens of other aspects of everyday life.

What? No you don't need an ID to file taxes! And depending on the job or apartment, one is not needed for that either.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Canada does not require photo IDs. And our democracy is perfectly fine.

Couple of comments here.

First off... You're canadian, so why do you give a crap what laws the US uses for voting? Do you also stick your nose into Norway, France, and Germany to give them grief about how awful it is that they require IDs for their citizens to vote? Or is this a requirement that you reserve solely for the US?

Second... Canada requires verification of identity, and prefers a state issued ID, but allows for other means of verification in the rare event that a citizen doesn't have an ID. Which is pretty much the same thing that is being proposed for the US. So if you think it's somehow morally abhorrent for the US to require verification of identity and citizenship in order to vote, perhaps you ought to tackle your own government first, eh?

 

[wareyin]

You really, really should. Because the piles of middle class white people absolutely dedicated to saving black people from having to have IDs is a pile of absolute echo-chamber ignorance. It's up there with "latinx", a term invented by white liberals to "help" hispanic people, and which hispanic people think is ignorant and offensive.

Got talk to minority citizens. You keep going on about how it's so hard for minorities to get legitimate state IDs, and you're talking out of your backside. You're so concerned about a hypothetical teensy outlier situation where two dozen people are so poor and so uneducated and unemployed and homeless and have never rented an apartment and have never had a job and have never, ever had to do the entirely normal commonplace activity of getting a state ID... that you're quite willing to let the voting process be exploited and weakened.

And every bit of it is based on sheer arrogance wrapped up with ignorance.

I do love how you ignored Segnosaur's cite of millions without state IDs to claim it was "two dozen people", and the personal examples I provided in order to tell me to go talk to minority citizens about how easy it is for them to get IDs. Talk about echo chamber ignorance...

 

[P.J. Denyer]

What? No you don't need an ID to file taxes! And depending on the job or apartment, one is not needed for that either.

Yes, but don't forget, according to a reliable source you need it to buy bread.....

 

[Emily's Cat]

The general stance in this thread seems to be... Oh tnoes, there's less than 1% of voting aged people in the US who don't have a non-expired state issued ID, even though that's not the only form of ID being discussed, so we totally can't require verification of identity and citizenship for voting in the US, even though the vast majority of other democratic countries require identity and citizenship verification in order to vote, and even though this provides a loophole for non-citizens or for multiple votes and weakens trust in US democracy... but the US should be expected to just let anyone vote because reasons.

 

[Helen]

Couple of comments here.

First off... You're canadian, so why do you give a crap what laws the US uses for voting? Do you also stick your nose into Norway, France, and Germany to give them grief about how awful it is that they require IDs for their citizens to vote? Or is this a requirement that you reserve solely for the US?

Voting in the US impacts Canada a great deal (especially now). Norway? Not so much, but somhow i imagine that Segnosaur would stand behind democratic elections in Europe as well.

But like it or not, elections in the US really is the business of the rest of us as well. That comes with the office, as it were.

 

[W.D.Clinger]

What? No you don't need an ID to file taxes! And depending on the job or apartment, one is not needed for that either.

I feel sorry for Anyone Who Actually Believes What Emily's Cat is Saying Here (AWABWECISH).

IRS: You need to file a tax return.​

AWABWECISH: Sorry, it would be illegal for me to file a tax return. I don't have a photo ID.​

​

Warden: You'll be making license plates. We'll pay you 25¢ an hour.​

AWABWECISH: You can't make me take that job. I don't have a photo ID.​

Donald Trump may be the only citizen of the United States who has to show photo ID to buy a loaf of bread.

In the real world, I don't have to show ID to purchase alcoholic beverages. (Some states and localities may require it, but not where I live.)

I don't recall having to show photo ID when I bought the house in which I now live. Maybe I did show ID at some point and forgot about it, but the seller didn't care who I was or whether I was a US citizen. What the seller did care about is that my money made its way into his account. (And yes, I paid by check and EFT in part to avoid taking out a loan or having to deal with paperwork that might have required me to show ID.)

I do have photo ID on my driver's license and on my passport, but it's been a very long time since I had to show photo ID just because I was buying something.