What did Democrats do wrong?

[thaiboxerken]

Maybe, just maybe, the Dems are utilizing strategy here. But I'm not very confident about that, Seg, Dems are famous for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
It would be cool if they have the vote to end the shutdown, vote to against Republicans, and then force the vote to release the Epstein files. However, I'm sure Mikey will find some way to (illegally) block that vote.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

To be fair. They're the ones that gave the added subsidies a sunset (expiration date) in the first place. The shutdown fight was about extending the subsidies for one year, so we could have another shutdown next year coinciding with the mid-term elections. If I were pushing for this, I would have either made the subsidies permanent from the outset, or pushed to make them permanent as part of the current shutdown deadlock. It's made out to be so dire, yet they still wanted to play games with it in the relative near future. Keeping leverage cards in the back pocket always seems to be the fad.

But then again. Maybe the subsidy extensions wouldn't be necessary if Obama-care was actually working to lower insurance premiums. Wishful thinking that people would ever plan for the future I guess.

 

[dirtywick]

Maybe, just maybe, the Dems are utilizing strategy here. But I'm not very confident about that, Seg, Dems are famous for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
It would be cool if they have the vote to end the shutdown, vote to against Republicans, and then force the vote to release the Epstein files. However, I'm sure Mikey will find some way to (illegally) block that vote.

there’s enough dems being bankrolled by the same interests that dominates the gop to ensure they’re unable to do anything effective other than execute the will of the interests

 

[Emily's Cat]

Still non-responsive.

In case you forgot, I was not suggesting that we will have actual famine. I was calling out *your* apparent inability to perceive farmers as having any problems as long as *you* can get groceries at your local store. Hence my question: Must we have actual famine to notice a problem?

Huh. Seems like the argument has mutated a bit. It has gone from "nobody to pick the food!!!11" to "farmers have a problem". And somehow I'm in the wrong because I don't think any of us should tolerate illegally imported borderline slave labor?

If the farmers are having a problem because they can't bring in illegal slaves, well... that problem doesn't seem to be impacting the availability or the prices of food. There has been no lack of produce, no shortages, nor has the price increased in any notable fashion.

So what problem is it that you think farmers have that justifies continuing to import exploited labor illegally?

 

[Segnosaur]

Maybe, just maybe, the Dems are utilizing strategy here. But I'm not very confident about that, Seg, Dems are famous for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
It would be cool if they have the vote to end the shutdown, vote to against Republicans, and then force the vote to release the Epstein files. However, I'm sure Mikey will find some way to (illegally) block that vote.

Oh, I never claimed that ending the shutdown was part of a grand strategy by certain democrats.

I'm just saying there may be some "good things" that result. Whether that was because of some big strategy, or just some random bit of luck doesn't matter, if it helps the democrats in the next election.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Maybe, just maybe, the Dems are utilizing strategy here. But I'm not very confident about that, Seg, Dems are famous for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
It would be cool if they have the vote to end the shutdown, vote to against Republicans, and then force the vote to release the Epstein files. However, I'm sure Mikey will find some way to (illegally) block that vote.

I'd point to the UK where the people who've voted consistently for bad things to happen to our economy, services and society still blame the other side for not stopping/instantly fixing the things they're party did.

 

[bruto]

Somehow today I can't get that line from Dylan off my mind....'Look out, kid, it's something you did; God knows when but you're doing it again."

 

[The Great Zaganza]

What was missed was a chance to force Republicans to capitulate.
By caving in, Democrats give credence to the narrative that it was Democrats who kept the shutdown going.
This will emboldened Trump &co to do the same thing next time, as is always the case when you give in to a bully

 

[Segnosaur]

What was missed was a chance to force Republicans to capitulate.

I guess the question is... would the republicans EVER capitulate.

This is one of the big differences between republicans and democrats. On average, I suspect the democrats care when happens to voters. Thus, when people start to suffer (such as people losing SNAP benefits, or people getting fired), they actually have concerns.

On the other hand, republicans do not care. Their only concerns are power and what they can grift. And since 1) Trump doesn't have to worry about re-election, and 2) the party is subservient to Trump, they will happily watch people starve to death if they think it is the best way to cling to power.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

The crash has to be bad - extremely bad, extremely painful. There is no other way to cure some Ever Trumpers of their delusion if they are not about to lose their house and car.
Polls were clear that most people blame Republicans more than Dems for the shutdown.
Instead of rescuing Trump, Dems should have waited until no more planes can fly.

I think it just boils down to many Democrats wanting to make sure they will get to fly home for their holidays - electoral considerations didn't really enter into it.
Thing is, Republicans want to fly, too. They would have caved

 

[dann]

Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema aren't even there anymore, and yet there were enough of those left to pull this stunt.

Senate Democrats Just STUNNED Trump With CHECKMATE Shutdown Move (Occupy Democrats on YouTube, Nov 10, 2025 - 4:54 min.)
Senate Democrats Caving in on the Shutdown is Actually a DISASTER for Trump!!!

Senate Democrats celebrated Tuesday's historic electoral victory by caving into Trump and the Republicans on Sunday. Trump has no popular support. His dementia is increasingly on display and Democrats held all the cards.
But in a move that is going to damage the Democratic brand for another decade, the centrist Wall Street wing of the Democratic party caved into the Republicans on the government shutdown.
Donald Trump should be celebrating. He should be firing off social media posts left and right about how awesome and powerful he is. Instead, behind closed doors, he's panicking. This spectacular failure by the gang of eight cowards is going to do nothing for healthc care, but it's going to weaken Trump irreparably and could even lead to his removal.
I'm going to show the three silver linings to the Democrats caving in

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I think it's even more basic:

Voters won't fight for a Party that tries to avoid fighting for them, or to fight at all.

Just for once, Democrats have to prove that they can and will play Hardball, and dam the consequences.

What's the point in electing Democrats if they will always compromise or give up even when they have the upper hand?

 

[dann]

Amazingly, Schumer was not one of the senators who caved.

No, he didn't outright vote for it, but ...

11.10--> Jon Stewart: You might be wondering to yourself there, well, where's Democratic Leader, Mr. No [BLEEP] Way, Chuck Schumer, during all this?
Well, ladies and gentlemen, he is on your social feeds, glasses in the ready position putting on a show:

Chuck Schumer: "Democrats have been fighting to get the Senate to address the health care crisis. This bill does nothing to ensure that that crisis is addressed. I am voting no, and I will keep fighting."

Jon Stewart: I don't [BLEEP] believe this. And I mean that now, literally.
Chuck Schumer, your protestation be not believable.
Look, either all eight senators who voted to capitulate, coincidentally, are not up for reelection in 2026, or Chuck Schumer worked behind the scenes to give into the Republicans while still protecting vulnerable Democrats, including himself.
That's right.
You know, humorously, after the election, I mentioned to a couple of political analysts in the afterglow, post-coital, about how the Democrats were going to squander their hard-earned electoral victories: "And I guess the question next for both of you is, how will they squander it? How? How will they piss this away?"

But I'm sure that Joe and Eileen Bailey still have Chuck Schumer's back.
From

Jon Stewart "Can't F**king Believe" Democrats Caved on the Shutdown (The Daily Shown on YouTube, Nov 11, 2025 - 21:34 min.)
In the wake of Democrats' decision to end the government shutdown, Jon Stewart returns to his prediction that they were going to piss away last week’s hard-earned electoral victories. With nothing to gain from caving, momentum on their side, and a deeply unpopular president, Jon compares the Democrats to the New York Giants, who at least had the good sense to fire their coach.

 

[Pixel42]

With all the blame that's currently flying around, I've not seen any directed at those who are actually responsible for the current mess: the millions of US citizens who voted to give Trump and his clownshow full control of their country.

Maybe, instead of trying to mitigate the effects of their insane act of massive self harm, the outvoted Dems should just sit back and let them suffer the consequences. It might be the only way to teach them not to do something so incredibly stupid ever again.

 

[dann]

With all the blame that's currently flying around, I've not seen any directed at those who are actually responsible for the current mess: the millions of US citizens who voted to give Trump and his clownshow full control of their country.

I'm sorry, but no! Those "millions of US citizens" aren't responsible for what Schumer and his gang of eight did. Those millions didn't vote for Schumer and his Democratic friends.

Maybe, instead of trying to mitigate the effects of their insane act of massive self harm, the outvoted Dems should just sit back and let them suffer the consequences. It might be the only way to teach them not to do something so incredibly stupid ever again.

To "just sit back and let them suffer the consequences" was what was actually proposed by Democratic strategist James Carville:
James Carville Tells Dem Politicians To ‘Do Nothing’ For Now (The View on YouTube, Feb 18, 2025 - 3:25 min.)
This is what Carville called "a daring political maneuver":
It's Time for a Daring Political Maneuver, Democrats (NYT, Feb 25, 2025)
This only shows that many Democrats don't give a damn about ordinary people or even their own voters. It is not as if the consequences would only be bad for people who voted for the Republicans, is it?

Most Republican voters didn't expect Trump and the other people they voted for to do what they are doing to healthcare right now, but they are not alone in this. I doubt that people who voted for Democrats like Chuck Schumer, Catherine Cortez Masto, Dick Durbin, John Fetterman, Maggie Hassan, Tim Kaine, Angus King, Jacky Rosen and Jeanne Shaheen wanted them to do what they just did.
Listen to their pathetic excuses for their vote in the first minute of this video:

We Got F***ed by Chuck and 8 PATHETIC Democrats Who Caved to Republicans—They MUST Pay for This! (The Humanist Report on YouTube, Nov 11, 2025 - 17:14 min.)
Eight Democrats just betrayed you by caving to Republicans: Fetterman, Kaine, King, Durbin, Hassan, Shaheen, Rosen and Cortez Mastro. Worse, Chuck Schumer was behind the whole thing and is lying to save face. In this video we’ll talk about this disgusting betrayal and what we can do to oust Schumer from leadership once and for all.

Feel free to imagine that Republicans and Republican voters are all to blame, but don't pretend that Democrats and the people who voted for them have nothing to do with it. It's what representative democracy is meant to do and almost always does, as I have told you before.

 

[Segnosaur]

With all the blame that's currently flying around, I've not seen any directed at those who are actually responsible for the current mess: the millions of US citizens who voted to give Trump and his clownshow full control of their country.

I'm sorry, but no! Those "millions of US citizens" aren't responsible for what Schumer and his gang of eight did. Those millions didn't vote for Schumer and his Democratic friends.

The millions who voted for republicans in 2024 might not have voted for Schumer and the gang of 8, but they did vote for Trump, Mike Johnson, MTG, Ted Cruz, etc.

If right-wing voters did not vote for republicans, we would never have seen the "big beautiful bill" enacted into law, and you wouldn't be looking at the destruction of US Healthcare. The gang of 8 is only relevant because republicans in congress and the white house have messed up the country so much.

 

[dann]

Can we agree that an awful lot of people, Republicans and Democrats alike, voted, and what they voted for turned out to be something other than what they thought they voted for?
And can we agree that in a representative democracy this is how things are supposed to be, i.e. very different from what people like to believe that it's supposed to be?
It's not just when you vote for Trump thinking that he will come down hard on illegal immigrants and on immigrants who eat other people's pets. It's also when you vote for Schumer & Co. thinking that he has your best interests at heart.

It is the thing that all kinds of democratic voters find it so difficult to come to terms with: Once you have voted for a representative and that representative gets elected, it's all up to that representative to tell and show you what you actually voted for. You hand over power to a representative who gets to decide what you voted for, and that decision is often swayed by who pays those representatives the most.
What you imagined you voted for, the good intentions you attributed to the candidate, is irrelevant once you've cast your vote.

You get to do it all over again in four years, and nothing much ever changes - not even the excuses you come up with when it all goes to hell: 'Those other guys are to blame. I voted for the right guy who unfortunately didn't win. They voted for the wrong ones.'

If right-wing voters did not vote for republicans, we would never have seen the "big beautiful bill" enacted into law, and you wouldn't be looking at the destruction of US Healthcare. The gang of 8 is only relevant because republicans in congress and the white house have messed up the country so much.

If you are disappointed about the way your representative interpreted what you voted for, you get to vote for another one in four years. There are always a long line of candidates waiting to vie for your vote, but it's always the same principle.

I explained the principle in post 352 in the George Santos thread and I elaborated on it for a couple of pages. With several receipts.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

They're good men who do nothing.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Can we agree that an awful lot of people, Republicans and Democrats alike, voted, and what they voted for turned out to be something other than what they thought they voted for?

Stop patronizing republican voters, they knew what they were going to get and chose it. They are just like the farmers who knew trumps trade war would sink them, but they could depend on bailouts. They are getting exactly what they wanted and voted for.

 

[Segnosaur]

I'm sorry, but no! Those "millions of US citizens" aren't responsible for what Schumer and his gang of eight did. Those millions didn't vote for Schumer and his Democratic friends.

Schumer seems to be getting a lot of criticism over this, with accusations that he somehow masterminded the capitulation.

Now, I am not necessarily a fan of Schumer. I think he is a black hole of charisma, and in the past he seems to have had this bizarre fantasy that somehow the MAGAchud will magically break from Trump. And in the beginning I thought it was plausible that he might have been behind things.

However, it should be noted that there is no concrete proof of his involvement... (much of the accusations seem to be based on "none of the senators who capitulated were facing election next year", but given the fact that senators only face election every 3 election cycles, its not that far fetched to think it might have happened by chance.) Furthermore, there are reports that some senators wanted to give up earlier, and Schumer actually convinced them to hold out longer, until insurance enrollment started.

From: https://www.axios.com/2025/11/10/schumer-government-shutdown-democrats
As Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer publicly battled Republicans over the government shutdown, he was privately cajoling a group of moderates not to fold before November.... Democrats are blaming Schumer (D-N.Y.) for not prolonging the shutdown... Two weeks into the shutdown, a group of moderates told Schumer they were ready to vote to open the government... Schumer persuaded the moderates to hold out until at least the beginning of November, when open enrollment for the Affordable Care Act began.... he made it clear to his entire caucus that he was likely to come out against the emerging bipartisan deal that a group of moderate senators were pushing.

So at least in this case, Schumer might not be the villain that he is being portrayed as.

Feel free to imagine that Republicans and Republican voters are all to blame, but don't pretend that Democrats and the people who voted for them have nothing to do with it.

I really think we need to put the actions of the various groups into context.

Republicans are motivated purely by greed and power. They do not care at all whether millions of americans end up bankrupt trying to pay for health care, or starve to death because SNAP benefits ran out. After all, they voted for the bill that is going to mess up people's health care, and did so openly.

As for the 8 democrats, we need to consider the possibility that their motives are a bit more... rational. Yes, people here are condemning them for giving up. But remember, even if the democrats held out and kept the shutdown going, there was no guarantee that health care subsidies were ever going to be extended, because republicans do not care about voters and would have resisted any sort of negotiations until the heat death of the universe, even if the shutdown destroyed the U.S. If you accept that as a likely outcome then you are not looking at "shutdown until health care restored", you are looking at "shutdown forever". In that case, a democrat could rationalize that since they were never going to get health care restored anyways, it made more sense from a tactical perspective to end the shutdown, get workers paid again and SNAP benefits restored.