What counts as a historical Jesus?

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Keepin' the E in JREF. Thank you very much.

In keeping with that, here is a quote from Carrier's blog of Dec 21, 2012:

"Further evidence that the longer reference is a Christian fabrication lies in an article I didn’t cite, however, but that is nevertheless required reading on the matter: G.J. Goldberg, “The Coincidences of the Testimonium of Josephus and the Emmaus Narrative of Luke," in the Journal for the Study of the Pseudepigrapha (vol. 13, 1995), pp. 59-77. Goldberg demonstrates nineteen unique correspondences between Luke’s Emmaus account and the Testimonium Flavianum, all nineteen in exactly the same order (with some order and word variations only within each item). There are some narrative differences (which are expected due to the contexts being different and as a result of common kinds of authorial embellishment), and there is a twentieth correspondence out of order (identifying Jesus as “the Christ”). But otherwise, the coincidences here are very improbable on any other hypothesis than dependence."
 
IanS

And as I just said above to Eight-Bits - the legal comparison most certainly is relevant here, and the reason we should follow legal practice in rejecting hearsay evidence is because it’s completely unreliable.
Good that I didn't put any money on it.

Here on Earth, there's a fair-sized jurisdiction called The United States of America. It's similar to judicial systems in other countries where English is an official language (and where, usually, the legal system is heavily influenced by the United Kingdom's).

The USA has two separate federal systems, military and civilian. There are also state systems with their own rules of evidence, but we'll put those aside for the moment. There is broad agreement about what hearsay is: an unsworn statement made outside the presence of the court.

Hearsay is admissible in both the military and civilian systems, because it is often reliable. The rules for its admissibility differ between the military and the civilian courts, and within the systems, according to the subject matter being adjudicated.

The rules for hearsay in American civilian criminal cases are especially severe. This has little to do with the relative reliability of this type of evidence compared with other types, but rather serves the Constitutional mandate that criminal defendants "be confronted with the witnesses against" them (Sixth Amendemnt). Obviously it is often difficult, but frequently not impossible, to get hearsay into evidence without denying the defendant the right to confrontation.

Even in this restricted civilian criminal trial, hearsay comes into evidence early and often. It is interesting that the "exceptions" sometimes parallel the practice of historians (whose stock in trade is hearsay). For example (and obviously constutionally sterile), reports of the defendant's own statements against interest often come in (which corresponds roughly to our old friend the "embarrassment criterion") Business records come in fairly easily, usually accompanied by a cross-examinable fact witness who can testify that they are in fact business records (which corresponds roughly to a historian's giving weight to hearsay recorded for a purpose unrelated to the controversy).

As the hearsay situation illustrates, legal rules of evidence are not crafted primarily to ensure the reliability of fact-finding. The rules serve other purposes as well, and those other purposes can be incompatible with assembling reliable evidence (for example, the outright exclusion of evidence obtained unlawfully, which distances the court from complicity in wrongdoing).

Nobody compels you to give any more weight to any piece of evidence than suits you. Even if the legal system excluded a kind of evidence for its purposes, that wouldn't in itself be a reason for you to do likewise. And, in the case of hearsay, the bullshy fantasy that law courts don't allow hearsay is factually erroneous anyway.

Jesus' historicity is not the subject of litigation, and it is facially unreasonable to hector someone else to judge the evidence as if it were something prepared for a lawsuit in a jurisdiction whose language didn't exist at the time in question, much less its legal rules. For your own personal fact finding, of course, you may do just as you please.
 
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In keeping with that, here is a quote from Carrier's blog of Dec 21, 2012:

"Further evidence that the longer reference is a Christian fabrication lies in an article I didn’t cite, however, but that is nevertheless required reading on the matter: G.J. Goldberg, “The Coincidences of the Testimonium of Josephus and the Emmaus Narrative of Luke," in the Journal for the Study of the Pseudepigrapha (vol. 13, 1995), pp. 59-77. Goldberg demonstrates nineteen unique correspondences between Luke’s Emmaus account and the Testimonium Flavianum, all nineteen in exactly the same order (with some order and word variations only within each item). There are some narrative differences (which are expected due to the contexts being different and as a result of common kinds of authorial embellishment), and there is a twentieth correspondence out of order (identifying Jesus as “the Christ”). But otherwise, the coincidences here are very improbable on any other hypothesis than dependence."

This is nonsense. You're citing a religious tract and a forgery as evidence.

The Bible is not a source of evidence. It's a religious tract that's a mishmash of revisionist history and religious malarkey.

The Josephus "account" of Jesus is a well-known forgery.

To have an historical Jesus you need:

1) Reliable, reputable historical references, of which there are none.

2) Archaeological evidence, of which there is none.

3) A body, of which there is none.

4) Artifacts, of which there are none.

The Jesus thing all comes down to the "faith" nonsense non-argument.

The rest is all talk.
 
... The Bible is not a source of evidence. It's a religious tract that's a mishmash of revisionist history and religious malarkey.
I see. Malarkey, eh! So no information can be inferred from any part of it? Well, that's a pity.
 
Yes, please.
The Testimonium comes up repeatedly in these discussions and it's well worth understanding the nature of the sources for it.

All right.

The main reason Agapios' version of the Testimonium matters (and the reason people like Stone ascribe such dramatic importance to it) is because of its striking textual differences from the textus receptus version. Whealey focuses on the following variations: the emphasis on Jesus dying on the cross, the mention of how Jesus' disciples merely reported that He appeared to them after the resurrection, the lack of a mention of Jewish leaders' role in Jesus' death, the toning down of the descriptions of Jesus deeds to seem less miraculous, and the description of Jesus as "perhaps" the Messiah.

Because of the evident similarities between Agapios' version of the Testimonium and Michael's version, Whealey argues that both were using the same source: a Syriac version of Eusebius' Historia Ecclesiastica. The first textual variation, the emphasis on Jesus' death on the cross, gave her a clue as to what that might have been. Both Agapios and Michael have this same textual variation...as does a Syriac manuscript of Historia Ecclesiastica dated to the 8th or 9th Century (called "Manuscript C") kept in the British Library. This manuscript's version of the Testimonium reads "Pilate condemned him to death by crucifixion", containing an interpolation of the words "to death" that does not appear in either Manuscript A of the Syriac Historia Ecclesiastica (dated to 462) or Manuscript B (dated to the 6th Century). In addition, both Manuscript C and Michael's version omit the word "again" in the sentence "for he appeared to them alive again the third day". The fact that this phrasing emphasizing that Jesus actually died on the cross does not appear in these Syriac versions of the Historia dating to before the Muslim conquests (only appearing in manuscripts known to be written after) suggests that this was an interpolation by later Christian writers to clarify that yes, Jesus died on the cross and returned to life, because otherwise the version of the Testimonium that they had was vulnerable to Muslim arguments that Jesus did not actually die on the cross.

Manuscript C also renders the textus receptus' "for He appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning Him" as "for after three days He appeared to them alive: it is known that the prophets of God said these things and many wonders like these things about Him". Whealey notes that no early Greek or Latin translation of the Testimonium contains the particular "it is known" phrasing or anything resembling it, which makes it unlikely to be original to Josephus. However, if Agapios' source text contained the same "it is known" phrasing as Manuscript C did, then he could have paraphrased that as "they made known" (ie, "they reported"), and associated it with the disciples mentioned in the first part of the sentence rather than the prophets of God mentioned in the second part. Thus, Agapios' final version of that sentence: "they made known (or ‘reported’: dhakaru) that He appeared to them three days after His crucifixion and He was alive; accordingly He was perhaps the Messiah about whom the prophets have spoken wonders".

However, other textual variations indicate that Michael and Agapios were not using Manuscript C directly, but instead using another (now apparently lost) version, because the lack of any mention of Jewish leaders' role in Jesus' death can be tied to what appears to be a scribal error in the Syriac version of the Historia used by them. The textus receptus reads "Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross", rendered in the standard Syriac version as "upon the testimony of the principal men of our nation, Pilate condemned him to the cross". But Michael's version reads "but not according to testimony of the principal men of our nation" (the same variation appears in Manuscript A, the earliest extant version of the Syriac Historia dated to 462 AD). Whealey argues that this appears to connect the Testimonium's sentence about the Jewish leaders' testimony to being about Jesus' Messiahood, and not to Pilate's execution of Him. Therefore, when Agapios' read that sentence which appeared to say "He was thought to be the Messiah, but not according to the testimony of the principal men among our nation. Pilate condemned Him to death by crucifixion", he just shortened it in his paraphrase to "Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die", not mentioning the Jewish leaders' role in Jesus' death because he mistakenly didn't think the source text he was paraphrasing actually said anything about the Jewish leaders' role in Jesus' death. Whealey also speculates that Michael, whose source text read the same way for that sentence as the source text Agapios was using, inserted the phrase "because of this" into his manuscript in an effort to correct this apparent error, rendering that section as "He was thought to be the Messiah. But not according to the leaders of the nation. Because of this, Pilate condemned him to the cross, and he died."

Whealey points out that Pines himself recognized that the "toning down" of Jesus' deeds into something ostensibly less miraculous is easily explained by the texts. Although the textus receptus describes Jesus as a "doer of wonderful works", it's clear that even in Josephus' original Greek that this is not a description of supernatural miracles, because the textus receptus uses the exact same description in Greek for King Ptolemy's remarkable but not really miraculous deeds ("he was sagacious in observing the nature of all things, and in having a just notion of what was new and surprising"), as well as the rather mundane description of Joab ("one...who was also adept in understanding political matters"). Both Michael's version and the standard Syriac version of the Historia translate the Greek parádoxos érgon (incredible works) as a word that I unfortunately have no transcription for, but which Pines and Whealey both say can mean simply "praiseworthy" or "fine" (Pines himself translates it as "glorious" in his renderings of both Michael's version and the standard Syriac version). As a result, if Michael's source for his version was indeed the same one that Agapios was using, Agapios could have easily read "For He was a doer of praiseworthy/fine deeds and a teacher of truth" as found in that source, and paraphrased/translated it into Arabic as "His conduct [or way of life, the Arabic reads sira, the same word used for accounts of the life of the Prophet Muhammad] was good and [He] was known to be virtuous".

Finally, there's the qualification that Jesus was "perhaps" the Messiah, rather than the firm statement of fact as found in the textus receptus Testimonium. Whealey points out that Pines also notes that this qualification can be found in Jerome's Latin translation of the Testimonium, which reads "credebatur esse Christus" ("believed to be Christ"). Pines argues that the Syriac and Latin writers did not read one anothers' works, this Latin phrasing of Jerome's can't have influenced the presumed Syriac source used by Michael and Agapios, and so both Jerome and Michael/Agapios must be using sources that are derived from an older Greek version of Eusebius' Historia that read something like "He was believed to be the Christ". Where that version of the Historia derived from, however, is unknown - there is no known version of the text in Greek, whether in the Historia or the Antiquities, that reads "He was believed to be the Christ". The closest thing is Pseudo-Hegesippus' Latin original composition De excidio urbis Hierosolymitanae, which reads "plerique tamen Judaeorum, gentilium plurimi crediderunt in eum" ("both most of the Jews and very many of the Gentiles believed in Him"). Whealey compares this to Jerome's "plurimos quoque tamen de Judais quam de gentilibus sui habuit sectores et credebatur esse Christus" ("many of the Jews and some of the Gentiles believed Him to be Christ"), and believes that Pseudo-Hegesippus' version is a positive paraphrase of an original text that Jerome translated more literally.
 
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IanS


Good that I didn't put any money on it.

Here on Earth, there's a fair-sized jurisdiction called The United States of America. It's similar to judicial systems in other countries where English is an official language (and where, usually, the legal system is heavily influenced by the United Kingdom's).

The USA has two separate federal systems, military and civilian. There are also state systems with their own rules of evidence, but we'll put those aside for the moment. There is broad agreement about what hearsay is: an unsworn statement made outside the presence of the court.

Hearsay is admissible in both the military and civilian systems, because it is often reliable. The rules for its admissibility differ between the military and the civilian courts, and within the systems, according to the subject matter being adjudicated.

The rules for hearsay in American civilian criminal cases are especially severe. This has little to do with the relative reliability of this type of evidence compared with other types, but rather serves the Constitutional mandate that criminal defendants "be confronted with the witnesses against" them (Sixth Amendemnt). Obviously it is often difficult, but frequently not impossible, to get hearsay into evidence without denying the defendant the right to confrontation.

Even in this restricted civilian criminal trial, hearsay comes into evidence early and often. It is interesting that the "exceptions" sometimes parallel the practice of historians (whose stock in trade is hearsay). For example (and obviously constutionally sterile), reports of the defendant's own statements against interest often come in (which corresponds roughly to our old friend the "embarrassment criterion") Business records come in fairly easily, usually accompanied by a cross-examinable fact witness who can testify that they are in fact business records (which corresponds roughly to a historian's giving weight to hearsay recorded for a purpose unrelated to the controversy).

As the hearsay situation illustrates, legal rules of evidence are not crafted primarily to ensure the reliability of fact-finding. The rules serve other purposes as well, and those other purposes can be incompatible with assembling reliable evidence (for example, the outright exclusion of evidence obtained unlawfully, which distances the court from complicity in wrongdoing).

Nobody compels you to give any more weight to any piece of evidence than suits you. Even if the legal system excluded a kind of evidence for its purposes, that wouldn't in itself be a reason for you to do likewise. And, in the case of hearsay, the bullshy fantasy that law courts don't allow hearsay is factually erroneous anyway.

Jesus' historicity is not the subject of litigation, and it is facially unreasonable to hector someone else to judge the evidence as if it were something prepared for a lawsuit in a jurisdiction whose language didn't exist at the time in question, much less its legal rules. For your own personal fact finding, of course, you may do just as you please.


Yes. As I said - it's highly unreliable as a form of credible evidence.

That's why it's normally ruled inadmissible in a court of law.

And we certainly are in the position of judging what is presented here as evidence of Jesus, as if we are a jury listening to various people making a case for or against the existence of Jesus.

In the case of hearsay evidence from writing said to be by Josephus and Tacitus - those authors are reporting stories that the writers have apparently heard from unnamed sources. That would not normally be allowed in any proper democratic legal trial, not because a witness cannot cross-examine the unknown source, but because the witness who makes the hearsay claim is (in this case) unable even to say where the supposed "evidence" of the story came from at all.

IOW - there is absolutely no evidence that such a story is true in any measure at all. It’s a “story”, it’s not “evidence”.
 
All right.

The main reason Agapios' version of the Testimonium matters (and the reason people like Stone ascribe such dramatic importance to it) is because of its striking textual differences from the textus receptus version. Whealey focuses on the following variations: the emphasis on Jesus dying on the cross, the mention of how Jesus' disciples merely reported that He appeared to them after the resurrection, the lack of a mention of Jewish leaders' role in Jesus' death, the toning down of the descriptions of Jesus deeds to seem less miraculous, and the description of Jesus as "perhaps" the Messiah.

Because of the evident similarities between Agapios' version of the Testimonium and Michael's version, Whealey argues that both were using the same source: a Syriac version of Eusebius' Historia Ecclesiastica, and the first textual variation, the emphasis on Jesus' death on the cross, gave her a clue as to what that might have been. Both Agapios and Michael have this same textual variation...as does a Syriac manuscript of Historia Ecclesiastica dated to the 8th or 9th Century (called "Manuscript C") kept in the British Library. This manuscript's version of the Testimonium reads "Pilate condemned him to death by crucifixion", containing an interpolation of the words "to death" that does not appear in either Manuscript A of the Syriac Historia Ecclesiastica (dated to 462) or Manuscript B (dated to the 6th Century). In addition, both Manuscript C and Michael's version omit the word "again" in the sentence "for he appeared to them alive again the third day". The fact that this phrasing emphasizing that Jesus actually died on the cross does not appear in these Syriac versions of the Historia dating to before the Muslim conquests, only after, suggests that this was an interpolation by later Christian writers to clarify that yes, Jesus died on the cross and returned to life, because otherwise the version of the Testimonium that they had was vulnerable to Muslim arguments that Jesus did not actually die on the cross.

Manuscript C also renders as "for He appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning Him" as "for after three days He appeared to them alive: it is known that the prophets of God said these things and many wonders like these things about Him". Whealey notes that no early Greek or Latin translation of the Testimonium contains the particular "it is known" phrasing or anything resembling it, which makes it unlikely to original to Josephus. However, if Agapios' source text contained the same "it is known" phrasing as Manuscript C did, then he could have paraphrased that as "they made known" (ie, "they reported"), and associated it with the disciples mentioned in the first part of the sentence rather than the prophets of God mentioned in the second part. Thus is Agapios' final version of that sentence, "they made known (or ‘reported’: dhakaru) that He appeared to them three days after His crucifixion and He was alive; accordingly He was perhaps the Messiah about whom the prophets have spoken wonders".

However, other textual variations indicate that Michael and Agapios were not using Manuscript C directly, but another (now apparently lost) version, because the lack of any mention of Jewish leaders' role in Jesus' death can be tied to what appears to be a scribal error in the Syriac version of the Historia used by them. The textus receptus reads "Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross", rendered in the standard Syriac version as "upon the testimony of the principal men of our nation, Pilate condemned him to the cross". But Michael's version reads "but not according to testimony of the principal men of our nation" (the same variation appears in Manuscript A, the earliest extant version of the Syriac Historia dated to 462 AD). Whealey argues that this appears connect the Testimonium's sentence about the Jewish leaders' testimony to being about Jesus' Messiahood, and not to Pilate's execution of Him. Therefore, when Agapios' read that sentence which appeared to say "He was thought to be the Messiah, but not according to the testimony of the principal men among our nation. Pilate condemned Him to death by crucifixion", he just shortened it in his paraphrase to "Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die", not mention Jewish leaders' role in Jesus' death because he mistakenly didn't think the source text he was paraphrasing said anything about Jewish leaders' role in Jesus' death. Whealey also speculates that Michael, whose source text read the same, inserted the phrase "because of this" into his manuscript in an effort to correct this apparent error, rendering that section as "He was thought to be the Messiah. But not according to the leaders of the nation. Because of this, Pilate condemned him to the cross, and he died."

Whealey points out that Pines himself recognized that the "toning down" of Jesus' deeds into something ostensibly less miraculous is easily explained by the texts. Although the textus receptus description of Jesus as a "doer of wonderful works", it's clear that even in Josephus' original Greek that this is not a description of miracles, because the textus receptus uses the exact same description in Greek to describe King Ptolemy's remarkable but not really miraculous deeds ("he was sagacious in observing the nature of all things, and in having a just notion of what was new and surprising"), as well as the rather mundane description of Joab ("one...who was also adept in understanding political matters"). Both Michael's version and the standard Syriac version of the Historia translate the Greek parádoxos érgon (incredible works) as a word that I unfortunately have no transcription for, but which Pines and Whealey both say can mean simply "praiseworthy" or "fine" (Pines himself translates it as "glorious" in his renderings of both Michael's version and the standard Syriac version). As a result, if Michael's version is the same one that Agapios was using, Agapios could have easily read "For He was a doer of praiseworthy/fine deeds and a teacher of truth" as found in that source, and paraphrased/translated it into Arabic as "His conduct [or way of life, the Arabic reads sira, the same word used for accounts of the life of the Prophet Muhammad] was good and [He] was known to be virtuous".

Finally, there's the qualification that Jesus was "perhaps" the Messiah, rather than the firm statement of fact as found in the textus receptus Testimonium. Whealey points out that Pines also notes that this qualification can be found in Jerome's Latin translation of the Testimonium, which reads "credebatur esse Christus" ("believed to be Christ"). Pines argues that the Syriac and Latin writers did not read one anothers' works, this Latin phrasing of Jerome's can't have influenced the presumed Syriac source used by Michael and Agapios, and so both Jerome and Michael/Agapios must be using sources that are derived from an older Greek version of Eusebius' Historia that read something like "He was believed to be the Christ". Where that version of the Historia derived from, however, is unknown - there is no known version of the text in Greek, whether in the Historia or the Antiquities, that reads "He was believed to be the Christ". The closest thing is Pseudo-Hegesippus Latin original composition De excidio urbis Hierosolymitanae, which reads "plerique tamen Judaeorum, gentilium plurimi crediderunt in eum" ("both most of the Jews and very many of the Gentiles believed in Him"), which Whealey compares to Jerome's "plurimos quoque tamen de Judais quam de gentilibus sui habuit sectores et credebatur esse Christus" ("many of the Jews and some of the Gentiles believed Him to be Christ"), and believes that Pseudo-Hegesippus' version is a positive paraphrase of an original text that Jerome translated more literally.

Bookmarked, and nommed.
 
Seconded.
Thanks for clearing an easy to understand path between versions of an intriguing little historic byway.
Jerome was the icing on the cake!


In keeping with that, here is a quote from Carrier's blog of Dec 21, 2012:

"Further evidence that the longer reference is a Christian fabrication lies in an article I didn’t cite, however, but that is nevertheless required reading on the matter: G.J. Goldberg, “The Coincidences of the Testimonium of Josephus and the Emmaus Narrative of Luke," in the Journal for the Study of the Pseudepigrapha (vol. 13, 1995), pp. 59-77. Goldberg demonstrates nineteen unique correspondences between Luke’s Emmaus account and the Testimonium Flavianum, all nineteen in exactly the same order (with some order and word variations only within each item). There are some narrative differences (which are expected due to the contexts being different and as a result of common kinds of authorial embellishment), and there is a twentieth correspondence out of order (identifying Jesus as “the Christ”). But otherwise, the coincidences here are very improbable on any other hypothesis than dependence."

Thanks for the link, maximara!



I see. Malarkey, eh! So no information can be inferred from any part of it? Well, that's a pity.

Why is that, Craig B?
 
In keeping with that, here is a quote from Carrier's blog of Dec 21, 2012:

"Further evidence that the longer reference is a Christian fabrication lies in an article I didn’t cite, however, but that is nevertheless required reading on the matter: G.J. Goldberg, “The Coincidences of the Testimonium of Josephus and the Emmaus Narrative of Luke," in the Journal for the Study of the Pseudepigrapha (vol. 13, 1995), pp. 59-77. Goldberg demonstrates nineteen unique correspondences between Luke’s Emmaus account and the Testimonium Flavianum, all nineteen in exactly the same order (with some order and word variations only within each item). There are some narrative differences (which are expected due to the contexts being different and as a result of common kinds of authorial embellishment), and there is a twentieth correspondence out of order (identifying Jesus as “the Christ”). But otherwise, the coincidences here are very improbable on any other hypothesis than dependence."

This is a link to a pdf of the paper that isn't behind a pay wall:
http://www.josephus.org/GoldbergJosephusLuke1995.pdf

Goldberg seems to have made the case that there are unequivocal similarities between a section of Luke and the TF. But what to make of that? Goldberg proposes three possibilities:
1. Coincidence
2. The TF was written and interpolated by somebody that had access to Luke.
3. The author of Luke and Josephus had similar sources

He provides evidence that seems to be convincing, Carrier at least thinks it is convincing, that the similarities that he has shown essentially eliminate possibility 1. Goldberg, favors possibility 3. He believes the case has been muddied because of interpolations added to what Josephus wrote, but he believes most of the TF was included in the Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus himself.

I would need to read his paper more carefully, but I didn't see where Goldberg dealt with some of the main objections to the authenticity of the TF in his paper. Goldberg does make the point that even if Josephus wrote part of the TF that he may be just incorporating something that was provided to him into his work and just because Josephus incorporated the TF into his work doesn't mean that that what it relates is true.
 
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Slowvehicle

Assumes, fact, authority, identity, and agency not in the record...which issues must be resolved before a hearsay exception may be claimed.
A fine illutsration of my point, the absurdity of applying rules of evidence developed for one purpose to a different inferential task entirely. Kudos.

IanS

Yes. As I said - it's highly unreliable as a form of credible evidence.
There's no objective basis on which hearsay is, by its nature, less reliable than other kinds of evidence used to make historical inferences.

The ususal problem that hinders most ancient-historical evaluations of the available evidence is the inability to cross examine the source. That's what distinguishes hearsay in a courtroom, not that it is differently reliable than other kinds of evidence that are also admissible, but that it is both open to irremediable uncertainties of interpretation ("I want to kill that guy" is the classic statement against interest, and so admissible, hearsay) and raises constitutional difficulties in many situations.

None of that has anything to do with ancient-historical inference. What distinguishes hearsay in a courtroom is just more of the same in ancient history.

In the case of hearsay evidence from writing said to be by Josephus and Tacitus - those authors are reporting stories that the writers have apparently heard from unnamed sources. That would not normally be allowed in any proper democratic legal trial, not because a witness cannot cross-examine the unknown source, but because the witness who makes the hearsay claim is (in this case) unable even to say where the supposed "evidence" of the story came from at all.
I can see you have lots of trial experience.

IOW - there is absolutely no evidence that such a story is true in any measure at all. It’s a “story”, it’s not “evidence”.
So you say, IanS. As I've already said, "For your own personal fact finding, of course, you may do just as you please. "
 
Minor correction to my post above that I couldn't make due to the limited post-editing time: where I wrote "In addition, both Manuscript C and Michael's version omit the word 'again' in the sentence 'for He appeared to them alive again the third day'", it should be noted that Agapios' version makes the same omission of the word "again" that appears in the textus receptus, with his sentence reading "He had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that He was alive".
 
There's no objective basis on which hearsay is, by its nature, less reliable than other kinds of evidence used to make historical inferences.

Please clarify: are you saying that someone saying "I heard that..." is no less useful than, say, physical evidence, or multiple corroborating independent texts, or first-hand correspondance ?
 
Slowvehicle


A fine illutsration of my point, the absurdity of applying rules of evidence developed for one purpose to a different inferential task entirely. Kudos.

<focus snip>"

...and yet, your argument still presumes an authority, a range of facts, an identity (or a set of identities), and agencies for which inadequate evidence has been provided.
 
Belz

Please clarify: are you saying that someone saying "I heard that..." is no less useful than, say, physical evidence, or multiple corroborating independent texts, or first-hand correspondance ?
I am saying that no other form of evidence is in every instance superior to every instance of hearsay. And, as an event recedes in time, hearsay often becomes interwoven with the other forms of evidence bearing on the event.

Texts? All texts that reach us from the time of interest in this thread have been copied. They are all hearsay, the testimony of a clerk saying "I read that..." That some hearsay, from more independent lines of copying, is better than other hearsay from fewer independent pathways is peachy with me. It doesn't make any copy not hearsay.

A holographic manuscript would indeed be better than a copy. Are there any that bear on the topic of this thread?

The reality is that if I lived my life and disregarded every hypothesis I accept on the basis of unsworn statements made outside of a courtroom, then I would be long since dead. So would you. Practicality aside, it is a falsehood that hearsay is always inadmissible in an American court of law. Like all evidence that is admissible, hearsay is admissible subject to rules. Rightly so.

SlowVehicle

I am unsure what you're saying has to do with any argument I've made recently.
 
Finding the tomb of a king is certainly better in all instances than saying "I saw this king in a dream.", though.

I'm curious as to what you would accept as an archeological artifact that would confirm the HJ. A bit of carpentry signed "Jesus made this", a scroll, a tomb, what?
 
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