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What counts as a historical Jesus?

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OK, I get what you mean now. You are referring to the nature of the narrative structure; that if the reader pays attention to the narrative perspective, it causes an oddity as if we are reading a journal, but the way that it's written is like a piece of fiction due to the odd and non-Human manner of interactions (events just jumping around without much comprehensible logic to why people would go along with the tangents shown, etc...) and the odd pairing of overly detailed side-tangents among poorly detailed scenery and context.

Thanks, that helps me understand what you were referring to.
 
OK, I get what you mean now. You are referring to the nature of the narrative structure; that if the reader pays attention to the narrative perspective, it causes an oddity as if we are reading a journal, but the way that it's written is like a piece of fiction due to the odd and non-Human manner of interactions (events just jumping around without much comprehensible logic to why people would go along with the tangents shown, etc...) and the odd pairing of overly detailed side-tangents among poorly detailed scenery and context.

Thanks, that helps me understand what you were referring to.
I must admit it hasn't helped my understanding very much.
 
I must admit it hasn't helped my understanding very much.

Mark just reads like a fictional work to me. Coupled with the complete lack of provenance provided in the work for who is doing the reporting, the time and distance between the author and the events being described and the lack of information about who the author was it just looks like the simpler idea here is that it is just made up entirely except perhaps that it is constrained a bit to line up with either Paul's works or information that was circulating based on Paul's works.

I am somewhat aware of the various theories about earlier versions of Mark. I just haven't seen anything in those kind of theories that makes it look like there is a source that is likely to have provided the kind of detail that is in Mark. It is of course possible to theorize that Mark has at its root an oral or written tradition that dates back to the HJ. But the theorizing behind that kind of thing looks dodgy to me.

Mark reeks of being a fictional work and even if one believes that an HJ existed it looks very difficult to sort out anything reliable out of it.

Earlier, Stone (I think) mentioned that the more plausible elements of Mark use less formal Greek implying that the earlier sections of Mark might have been written first and represent a genuine oral tradition. Maybe there is an argument to be made along those lines but I wonder what section of Mark could be identified that would be more plausible. It all looks like it is fiction to me.
 
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davefoc

Chiming in on the "why write that?" question, I think Mark was written for the same overarching reason that Paul wrote letters. Even if the world ends next year, there are still a year's worth of power, influence, and material resource concerns which writing can influence.

The passage you cited addresses what might plausibly have been crucial matters in the contemporary internal politics of the movement, such as Peter's credentials and dependence of the movement on John the Baptist. In your passage, from Mark 1: 14-20, both Peter and his brother are placed outside any religious movement until Jesus appoints them, the first among his disciples and only after John the Baptist has been arrested. Contrast John 1: 35-42, where Peter's brother, but not Peter himself, is a disciple of John the Baptist, who participates in the first appointments, but Peter has a personal appointment scene with Jesus.

And, even if the details are made up, you are still left with why invent these details? Whether the intent is fidelity to events or utter fabrication, ink marks on the page reflect an author's intention.

Nonetheless, it seems plausible to me that Paul really has been in contact with some of the HJ associates.
But it is more plausible that Paul was in contact with people he believed, for whatever reason, were HJ associates. Paul cannot know who was or wasn't an associate of a historical Jesus, since Paul and Jesus never met, and so necessarily, they never met when any associate was present. Paul may have formed his belief based on what the James Gang told the public, or what Paul's visions told him, or maybe ... a lot of things, but direct personal knowledge is unavailable to Paul.

Mark just reads like a fictional work to me.
As it should. Tradition is that "Mark" assembled it into chronological form from sermons. There is no way anybody could synthesize a fluent chronological narrative from isolated anecdotes without making something that reads like realist fiction.
 
Sorry, Maximara but that list of interests is.... weird to say the least. Divination ? Really ?

What is so weird about it?

"It cannot be doubted that the art of divination is of immense antiquity,..." ((1876) The Journal of the Anthropological Institute of Great Britain and Ireland, Volume 5)

'Divination and Its Social Contexts', Journal of the Royal Anthropological Institute 93 (1963): 195-209

Certainly having an interest in Divination (ie the role it plays in various cultures and if there is a common thread in all its variants) in of itself is not "weird".

In Miner's sarcastic 1956 "Body Ritual among the Nacirema" article the role of medical lab tech is derided as "diviner" which mocked the very dismissive attitude of his time...as well as the one you are showing here, today.

Once Anthropology pulled its head out of its collective rear end regarding magic and supernatural they found a interesting complex of beliefs and reality behind them.

As flawed as it was Guerico's 1986 "The Secrets of Haiti's Living Dead" at least got anthropologists out of the 'oh look at the superstitious primitives who believe in zombies' mode they had been in decades and seeing just what might be going on.

D Inglis, (2010) "The Zombie from Myth to Reality: Wade Davis, Academic Scandal and the Limits of the Real", 7:2 SCRIPTed 342, http://www.law.ed.ac.uk/ahrc/script-ed/vol7-2/inglis.asp goes into how as far as anthropology goes everything basically went pearshaped for for the first researcher who followed up on Guericon and did his own books.


If we sit back and look at it, the evidence for the Gospel Jesus is basically nil.

1) Paul is the only known contemporary and he give us next to nothing to work with.

In fact based on various temporal markers in Josephus it appears John the Baptist was executed in 36 CE (Goldberg, G. J (2001) "John the Baptist and Josephus") so assuming Jesus was crucified after the death of John the Baptist this locks us to 36 CE. Also it has been pointed out that as Saul Paul had to have enough time to persecute Christians to the point he was infamous in three provinces and that his conversion by his own words must have occurred no later then 37 CE. More on this later.

2) No meaningful reference to any Gospel occurs until c180 CE.

3) All the non Christian sources have either been tampered with to the point we have no idea what, if anything, they said about Jesus (Josephus), are too late to do us any good (Tacitus, Suetonius Nero reference), or smack of desperation to find something anything that shows Jesus existed (Suetonius Chrestus reference, Thallus, Pliny the Younger).


So we are asked to believe that Christianity spread fast enough that there were enough believers in three provinces (Jesus seems to have only visited two) to persecute in what is at best a year. And yet no one of the time notes this wild spread of this belief. Just WHAT are the historians smoking to think this is even remotely plausible?!
 
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Before getting into the letters to the Corinthians, it's time for another "pimp post" linking the major points made from the mainstream academic view (MAV).

What I hope will become increasingly clear as we go on is that HJ theory not only is the most likely theory on its face, but also provides a single coherent explanation for who the early Xians were and how their beliefs morphed into non-Jewish Xianity.

I defy any mythicist to put together a unified theory which is more probable and which so succinctly explains the known history.

Furthermore, a perusal of these posts should clearly demonstrate that accusations of claims of "absolute certainty" and "no evidence" are entirely bogus. So can we dispense with those red herrings, please?


What would mythicists have to do to be taken seriously?

Is it a "problem" that our earliest references to Jesus come from his followers?

Jesus must be understood in his own context, not alien ones

Christianity was not a "cargo cult"

Should we "teach the controversy"?

Paul's letter to the Galatians
Opposition to Paul's theology by other missionaries
Lack of any references outside of Judaica
Attempts to make sense of the death of Jesus
Jewish Christianity pre-dates Paul's conversion
Why getting the teaching directly from Jesus is important
Arguments with "men from James" regarding circumcision
The collection for the poor in Jerusalem
Arguments with the Jerusalem assembly over table fellowship
Paul's feelings about the role of the Jewish Law
Conversion by the Holy Spirit
Paul says Jesus was born of a woman under the Law
Salvation does not come by rituals, but by proving one's worth to God
Rabbinical teaching to love one's neighbor as oneself
Paul stresses that this letter is in his own hand

What "the evidence" looks like

Why "no serious historian doubts a historical Jesus." (Necro-post)

Further observations on Suetonius and Mara

Observations on the Mara letter

The awkward details

Observations on the Suetonius citation

The wrong way to ask for evidence

Sufficient evidence of consensus, no evidence of legitimate challenge

We can't simply ignore the writings of Jesus' followers

Why we believe there was a historical Jesus: Part first
Scribes can be our friends
Paul's letter to the Thessalonians
The "occasional" nature of Paul's letters
What Paul did in the places he visited
A different gospel and a different kingdom from the Romans'
Paul's paternalism
Paul's view of sin and death as forces
Admonitions to love and morality
Only the chosen are saved

Should we expect direct archaeological evidence of Jesus?

What sort of scenario makes sense?

Misunderstanding of how historicity is established

The evidence isn't, and can't be, "all from the Bible"

There isn't any "made up crucifixion" scenario to consider

Why would early Christians say they're followers of a crucified martyr?

Jesus preaches a "Kingdom" of his own time

Salvation by works or grace

Why is Jesus said to have gone to Tyre and Sidon?
Comparison to Elijah
Justification for missions to the gentiles

The new theology of a crucified messiah
The psychology of disconfirmed end-time cults
Possible roles of Mary of Magdala and Peter the Rock

Did Jesus eat and drink?

The influence of Hellenism

A life of Jesus of Nazareth: Part III
The crucifixion, a docudrama

The "corroborating evidence" for Jesus

Why study "unreliable" sources?

Jesus isn't like Pliny's ghost story

It's not true that only Paul prefers Jesus over John the Baptist

Jesus is not like Enoch or Daniel

"Almost universal assent" regarding baptism and crucifixion of Jesus

A life of Jesus of Nazareth: Part II
The Galilee years
The Little Apocalypse
Ezra's good shepherd
2nd Isaiah: Wrath for pagans, paradise for Jews
Enoch and the Son of Man
Celestial bodies, pre-existence of the Chosen One, and resurrection of the dead

What the objective corroborated evidence points to

Why no writings before Paul?

Was Jesus a pacifist?

What do the birth stories indicate?

Jesus is not a composite character

John baptized Jesus

A life of Jesus of Nazareth: Part I
Summary of points thus far
1st century Galilee
Who was John the Baptist?
An apocalyptic doctrine
Jesus was one of many

The consensus is well established

Core bibliography

The magi as fools transformed

Why we expect there to be a historical Jesus

Does it matter whether James is Jesus's brother?

The odds of Jesus being real

Why is Jacob chosen over Esau?
Role of genealogies, blessing stories, and nick-names
Mushite/Aaronite propaganda in the story of Isaac
The curse against the Edomites
What the sins are doing to the soil

Judea and Galilee in the first century
1200 year background
Ezekiel's prophecy of the shepherd
Significant factions at the time of Jesus
The importance of Davidic and Zadokite rule
Daniel and the abomination of desolation

How Jewish were the original Christians?
Second Isaiah (exilic) on the Kingdom of God
Spiritualization of scripture
The Little Apocalypse of Isaiah (Judean)
Daniel and the Son of Man
Enoch's apocalypse (long text)

Archaeology in Galilee
Evidence of pervasive Jewish culture
Pontius Pilate inscription
Roof construction and the Gospels of Mark and Luke

Paul's assemblies have met Simon Peter (Cephas)

Why they believed in a crucified Messiah

Did Paul think there was no body?

Peter, James, and John are real people

What if you met some of Jesus's followers?

What is the historical Jesus?
Levine citation regarding scholarly consensus
List of most commonly cited sources

Paul's table ritual isn't mystery cultish

Paul's table ritual received from other Christians, not revelation

Did James, Peter, and John make up Jesus?

The problem with Campbellian analysis
Paul's v. Mark's description of the table rite

James was likely Jesus's actual brother

Why is Paul terse about the 1st Jerusalem meeting?
Paul swears he's not lying

Unlikely James lied about Jesus

Paul didn't make up the Pillars

Inference by mass

Mythicism isn't even a hypothesis, it's just a bizarre idea

What are Paul's letters?

The new theology of Jesus's followers

Historical Jesus resources for the general public

Paul didn't make up missionary network

Paul didn't make up Jesus

Paul's letters aren't bogus

Miracle stories don't support mythicism

What historians ask about texts

Why Jesus myth won't work

Why did people tell miracle stories about Jesus?

Paul couldn't have made up the disciples

Paul says Jesus is human

Paul's conversion

Why Jesus isn't Hercules

The strongest evidence for a historical Jesus

No pre-existing Jesus-like gods or folk heroes in Jewish lit

Have Paul's letters been dated?

Son of God v. Son of Man

Anderson on Son of Man

Earliest Christians thought Jesus was human

James's position in the church

Jesus was a follower of John the Baptist

The Temple incident
Jewish tradition of Son of God

Jesus was from Nazareth
Context and convergence

What can we tease out about Jesus's life?

The key question of the historical Jesus
 
Furthermore, a perusal of these posts should clearly demonstrate that accusations of claims of "absolute certainty" and "no evidence" are entirely bogus.


When you said

To be blunt, I don't have much patience with that kind of philosophical musing.

I mean, you could also say that, technically, it's an open question from a scientific point of view whether the earth is round or flat.

But in reality, there's no doubt.
There's also no real doubt among historians that the Nazis did, in fact, build extermination camps and murder thousands of people.

To go into those topics and try to nit-pick by saying, "Whoa, wait, hold on... what do you mean there's no real doubt... scientifically, everything is in doubt" is a tactic which simply attempts to put a roadblock down and contributes nothing at all.

The notion that a historical Jesus is controversial is as valid as the notion that there are genuine controversies over whether evolution is real. Nobody who is familiar with the actual scholarship believes there's any controversy at all.


Why is it that people who don't understand logical fallacies are so keen to trot them out?

Pointing out the fact that all the available scholarship converges on one conclusion is not an "argument from authority". Nor is it "argument from consensus". If you think it is, then you don't know what those terms mean.

I mean, seriously, the number of mythicists (those who doubt the existence of a historical Jesus) among publishing scholars in academic journals can literally be counted on one hand.

Think about that.

You try to dismiss this fact by saying, well, that doesn't matter, it's "argument from authority".

You are wrong.

There's a difference between citing authority and the fallacy of which you apparently know the name but not the definition.

And btw, ridiculous ideas merit ridicule. As do people who are shown conclusive evidence and deny it, as Hans has done for example in the case of Paul's opinion regarding the humanity of Jesus.
The strongest evidence is that there was a movement of his followers, the earliest of whom -- as attested by well studied artifacts -- said they were followers of a real man who lived in their time, among them.

Given what we know about that day and time, that fact alone makes it overwhelmingly likely that there was an apocalyptic Jewish holy man called Jesus whom these people followed.

*snip*

Yes, it's a done deal, as far as history can ever be said to be done.
*snip*

it's really our fault for misunderstanding the level of certainty you have displayed in this thread? Saying "[t]he notion that a historical Jesus is controversial is as valid as the notion that there are genuine controversies over whether evolution is real" does not, in any way, imply absolute certainty?

Absolute BS.



And when you said

The strongest evidence is that there was a movement of his followers, the earliest of whom -- as attested by well studied artifacts -- said they were followers of a real man who lived in their time, among them.
The strongest evidence we have, of course, is that there is a group of Jews in the middle of the 1st century who say they are followers of a holy man named Jesus who lived in Galilee and was crucified by Pilate.

We even have letters from one of them which describe his dealing with some of the others who, according to him, knew Jesus or were even related to him.

By far, the most reasonable explanation for why those people said they were followers of a man called Jesus is that they were followers of a man named Jesus.

then, to me, this sums up the mountains of evidence you seem to think you have. A bunch of people thought he existed, so therefore, he existed. Sounds like it's reasonable to conclude that Moroni existed by your reasoning. After all, why would Joseph Smith make stuff up? Why would he write about stuff that he wasn't actually told by Moroni?
 
When you said

it's really our fault for misunderstanding the level of certainty you have displayed in this thread? Saying "[t]he notion that a historical Jesus is controversial is as valid as the notion that there are genuine controversies over whether evolution is real" does not, in any way, imply absolute certainty?

Absolute BS.


then, to me, this sums up the mountains of evidence you seem to think you have. A bunch of people thought he existed, so therefore, he existed. Sounds like it's reasonable to conclude that Moroni existed by your reasoning. After all, why would Joseph Smith make stuff up? Why would he write about stuff that he wasn't actually told by Moroni?

Thanks for this as I had missed the "[t]he notion that a historical Jesus is controversial is as valid as the notion that there are genuine controversies over whether evolution is real" insanity.

The only "controversies" regarding evolution being real is from religious people who deny all the evidence regarding evolution or try to pretend evolution is still in the Newtonian mode Darwin originally put forth. Nevermind, in the US at least, the courts have ruled that Creationism is NOT science. Furthermore Creationism require denial of fundamentals in the physical as well as biological sciences.
 
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Paul's first letter to the Corinthians

In 146 BCE, the city of Corinth was destroyed by the Romans for leading a rebellion against Roman incursion into Greece. About a hundred years later, it was rebuilt by Rome and populated with some of Rome's overpopulation, including freed slaves and military veterans.

About a hundred years after that, Paul wrote a letter to the Christian assembly which he had recently established there, consisting of a few house-assemblies, and one whole-assembly which gathered to celebrate the Lord's supper.

By that time, Corinth had developed into a bustling trade hub, and a flagship of Roman culture.

After Paul had moved on to Ephesus, an Alexandrian (Egyptian) Jew called Apollos rose to prominence within the Corinthian community… and he didn't always agree with what Paul taught.

As did all of Paul's assemblies, the Corinthian Christians had questions which arose within the community, both from the divergence of teachings among the various evangelists who came there, and from everyday issues of life which they didn't know how to interpret in light of the new religion to which they had converted.

Paul's letter is in response to a letter from the assembly, and from word brought to him by "Chloe's people".

Although many of the problems within the group are rather mundane, Paul was also clearly concerned about a tendency among some in the group toward views more aligned with what we see among Egyptian Jewish communities of the time -- a belief that salvation is attained through wisdom in this life. Clearly, such a view is diametrically opposed to what we've seen thus far of Paul's theology, which held that salvation is to be attained only at the Day of the Lord, and only by rejecting power, wealth, and status.

It is important to note here that the "wisdom" faction is not associated with the Jerusalem group, for reasons which should be obvious to anyone who has read my posts up to this point. His arguments with James and Peter differ sharply from his arguments with those aligning themselves with the teachings of Apollos.

Not only does Paul's argument with Apollos give us wonderful insights into how Paul saw the religion, and how the religion was morphing beyond his control and the control of Jerusalem as it expanded as a result of their aggressive evangelism, but it also provides us with citations from Paul of extremely early Christian creeds which predate his mission.

This is a longer letter than the two previous ones we've examined, and it's getting late here in my neck of the woods, so I'll have to begin an examination which will have to be continued later.

He begins with his customary greeting:

Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes,

To the assembly of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours:

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Note that Sosthenes, Paul's current traveling companion (and probably his scribe for this letter), is not designated as having been "called… by the will of God" to be an apostle, but that all the followers of Jesus are "called" to be "his holy people", that is, the righteous remnant of prophecy.

I always thank my God for you because of his grace given you in Christ Jesus. For in him you have been enriched in every way — with all kinds of speech and with all knowledge — God thus confirming our testimony about Christ among you. Therefore you do not lack any spiritual gift as you eagerly wait for our Lord Jesus Christ to be revealed. He will also keep you firm to the end, so that you will be blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

A few important notes….

Again, these are people whom God has chosen by His grace, through belief in the resurrection of Jesus.

Paul anchors the gifts of speech and knowledge to their status "in Christ", and will later contrast this view of knowledge with a view of "wisdom" which he clearly opposes.

Also, Paul mentions "spiritual gifts". As we'll see going forward, these are gifts granted by the Holy Spirit at conversion, and each member of the assembly is supposed to have received some sort of spiritual gift, which might be prophecy or healing or what have you.

And as always, this group is "eagerly awaiting" the imminent return of Jesus in power. And if they stay firm in their faith, God will find them blameless on the "day of our Lord", a re-interpretation of the apocalyptic Day of the Lord as outlined in Jewish prophecy.

My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s people have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel — not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Several important points here.

First, this group not only knows Paul, but also Apollos, and Peter. Again, we see this missionary network, and we see that Peter could not have been a fiction devised by Paul, since some in this group apparently felt greater loyalty to him -- and why not? -- than they did to Paul.

Also we see that the various missionaries were not in agreement about the doctrine of the group -- hardly the hallmark of an organized scam operation. (Not that there's any real indication that the movement ever was a scam, but some have raised the question.)

Here, too, we get more information about methods of conversion and induction, which again are thoroughly Jewish -- specifically, by baptism. Not that water rituals were unique to Judaism, but clearly there is no need to go searching beyond Judaism for the roots of the conversion ritual, which was baptism in the name of Jesus, the Anointed One. Sure, we could to seeking "parallels" outside of Judaism, but why do so, given the fact that everything about this group is so firmly rooted in the Jewish religion?

Finally, Paul sets up an opposition between the previously-mentioned knowledge which comes from Christ, and eloquent "wisdom" which comes from elsewhere, and which can lead one astray from the power of God's resurrection of Jesus as the first fruits of the coming elevation of the faithful.

And I'm afraid I'll have to leave it there for now because it's late and I need to sleep.

More later, and thanks again for your patience.
 
Thanks for that beginning to Corinthians, Piggy.
I'm looking forward to reading more.


Thanks for the source material, maximara.
Did Carrier ever write up a response to Glenn Miller's rebuttal of his essay?
A kind of rebuttal is actually in the online version of Kooks and Quacks of the Roman Empire: A Look into the World of the Gospels (1997):

"Glenn Miller has written a rebuttal to this essay ("Were the Miracles of Jesus invented by the Disciples/Evangelists?" 2002), in response to which I changed some of the language above so as not to give a mistaken impression of my meaning. Miller's title has little to do with my essay, since I am not arguing here (even if I do elsewhere) that anyone in particular "invented" the miracles of Jesus. Rather, I am merely presenting a survey of the social and intellectual context in which those miracles came to be believed.

As to the remainder of Miller's criticism of this essay specifically, I plan to respond in a future rebuttal (which will be announced here). But one simple point must be made even now: almost all of Miller's relevant evidence comes from the educated or even scholarly elite (like Lucian), and thus in no way represents the average man or woman in antiquity, who by their very circumstance wrote nothing for Miller to examine. I would guess that skilled skeptics and skeptical viewpoints like those Miller finds probably could not be found in much more than 10% of the population of the time, if even that--but whose existence I acknowledged even in the original draft of this essay."


While Carrier himself hasn't seem to have written the rebuttal (I can't find the thing if he has) over on theologyweb.com a guy named Stinky did put some of Miller's examples in social and temporal prospective.

"Despite the direct evidence we have to the contrary, such as the one Steven Carr provided, Miller seems unconvinced, and offers Epicurus, Lucretius, and Lucian as counterexamples. There are a few problems with this however. First, Epicurus lived in Greece around the third century B.C. His writing has nothing to do with Jerusalem, or Rome, or even Greece in the first century A.D. The second problem is that Epicurus was a member of a small minority even in his own time, superstition and gullibility were common then, as it always has been, and unfortunately, probably always will be.

Lucretius is somewhat nearer, writing in the First century B.C., still, not A.D. Of course his was also a small minority position.

It seems to me, the only one writing near the time in question, is Lucian, and he does not support Millers position."

A poster called Johnny Skeptic provides even more things that takes Miller's position and kicks it between the legs and then proceed to walk off with its lunch money. :rolleyes:

I can read Binford (who at times needs reintroduction to the introductory paragraph) but Glenn Miller's rebuttal makes my head hurt. It comes as even more disorganized then Binford and that is not a good thing.

Thanks for looking into that question.
It'll be interesting to see where Carrier goes with this subject.


...What Paul promised wasn't wealth or anything like "mercy." He promised immortality, freedom from the need for wealth, and the ability to fly. Meanwhile, his customers could see for themselves that the Paul Method imparted instant knowledge of foreign languages, both speaking and translating, visions of the future, and at least the occasional out of body experience. In other words, the perceived rewards for participating in church activites were immediate, not only something postponed.


These points have already been addressed at length by several posters here. Paul did take money, and Paul did not deliver on his promise that his customers would fly.

The only open questions are whether that was his intention and if so, whether he had sufficient mental health to form a criminal intention. Of the two, the latter would plainly be the more difficult to establish.

I see your point.
Was the fellow bonkers or a scammer?
That would be established by having agents posing as interested clients.
Just as it's done today. ;)

Of course this is all speculation and opinion.
Piggy posted that the question of Paul as a scammer has been studied and rejected.
I'm hoping he'll post up his sources for that because it would be interesting to see the reasoning and evidence for rejecting the idea of a deliberate scam.

That would leave us with Paul as comparable to the kiddies at Fatima rather than Paul as an earlier version of Joseph Smith, IMO.



Thanks for the link, Stone!

Stone,

I don't know if you are familiar with this website (link) ...

A most interesting blog, Greediguts.
Thanks for posting up the link.
 
max

1) Paul is the only known contemporary and he give us next to nothing to work with.
We have no clear time marker for Jesus' (alleged) minstry, either. How long it lasted (a few weeks? or a few years?), and when John's arrest and death fell relative to the interval (before or during? after?) are ill specified. Church tradition says Mark didn't know the timeline or sequence of events. A crucifixion in 36 is fine for a historical Jesus who counts. Pilate is still nailing folks in Judea during 36.

Paul never gives an example of an overt act of "persecution" peformed by him. Paul alone tells us that his name was notorious throughout the entire Jewish homeland. As with his "knowledge" of the backstory of the James Gang, Paul never tells us how he would know that anybody outside Jerusalem would have recognized his name. He does not report touring the homeland, for instance. Paul clearly had a robust opinion of his own importance, and his Gentile audiences wouldn't likely know how Paul had been regarded by his fellow Jews, far away and years before the letters were written.


pakeha

That would leave us with Paul as comparable to the kiddies at Fatima rather than Paul as an earlier version of Joseph Smith, IMO.
I mentioned earlier in the thread James Michener's historical fiction Hawai'i. Much of the plot concerns how the Christian missionaries ended up owning lots of the material wealth of the islands. This left their converts, the surviving native people, poorer, both absolutely and relative to the missionary families.

Did the historical missionaries to Hawai'i intend to loot the place? Or did it just work out that they "did well by doing good?" In all likelihood, they themselves couldn't answer the question reliably, in part because they wouldn't want to think of themselves, even as a serious possibility, as pirates. (See the nearby thread on Harris' "Fireplace delusion" for a discussion of human resistance to investigate potentially inconvenient facts candidly,)

All we can really say of them, I think, is that they showed up where they were previously unknown with a fantasy wish fulfilment story. Local people who had material goods bought into the story. In the fullness of time, those people had fewer material goods than before, and the fantasists had more. I think Paul's case is parallel.

It is, after all, a Christian virtue that when doing good, your left hand should not know what your right hand is doing. Think of what that phrase says as a description of a state of mind.
 
What is so weird about it?

Well if I give you a link to a website I say will convince you of something I'm saying, and the first thing you notice is that the author is interested in "faith healing, homeopathy, reflexology, crystals and new age philosophy." it doesn't bring up a red flag ?

If we sit back and look at it, the evidence for the Gospel Jesus is basically nil.

Oh, more than just basically.
 
I defy any mythicist to put together a unified theory which is more probable and which so succinctly explains the known history.

Seriously, why do you keep addressing people who aren't in the thread ?

It's like if I kept "defying" creationists of proving that Jesus existed. You'd wonder why I'm talking to people who have nothing to do with any poster in this thread, right ?
 
When you said





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it's really our fault for misunderstanding the level of certainty you have displayed in this thread? Saying "[t]he notion that a historical Jesus is controversial is as valid as the notion that there are genuine controversies over whether evolution is real" does not, in any way, imply absolute certainty?

Absolute BS.



And when you said


​

then, to me, this sums up the mountains of evidence you seem to think you have. A bunch of people thought he existed, so therefore, he existed. Sounds like it's reasonable to conclude that Moroni existed by your reasoning. After all, why would Joseph Smith make stuff up? Why would he write about stuff that he wasn't actually told by Moroni?


Well spotted.
 
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...I mentioned earlier in the thread James Michener's historical fiction Hawai'i. Much of the plot concerns how the Christian missionaries ended up owning lots of the material wealth of the islands. This left their converts, the surviving native people, poorer, both absolutely and relative to the missionary families.

Did the historical missionaries to Hawai'i intend to loot the place? Or did it just work out that they "did well by doing good?" In all likelihood, they themselves couldn't answer the question reliably, in part because they wouldn't want to think of themselves, even as a serious possibility, as pirates. (See the nearby thread on Harris' "Fireplace delusion" for a discussion of human resistance to investigate potentially inconvenient facts candidly,)

All we can really say of them, I think, is that they showed up where they were previously unknown with a fantasy wish fulfilment story. Local people who had material goods bought into the story. In the fullness of time, those people had fewer material goods than before, and the fantasists had more. I think Paul's case is parallel.

It is, after all, a Christian virtue that when doing good, your left hand should not know what your right hand is doing. Think of what that phrase says as a description of a state of mind.

Thanks for reminding me of that novel.
Speaking of missionaries in the Pacific, I recommend Somerset Maugham's short stories that deal with them. Rain is the best known, but there are others worth reading.
http://archive.org/stream/rainotherstories00maugiala#page/n3/mode/2up

And to guide us back to the OP, has anyone here read Waltari's The Roman? It's a novel that deals with the conflicts between Jewish and Gentile Christians in the 1st century and has Paul cropping up constantly. An interesting counter-point to the thread.
 
... That would leave us with Paul as comparable to the kiddies at Fatima rather than Paul as an earlier version of Joseph Smith, IMO.
I'm not even sure about the honesty of Sister Lucy. She reported having received from the Virgin a warning about Russia spreading its errors around the world. The interview with the Virgin took place in 1917, so Lucy's account has been portrayed as a prophecy about communist propaganda and infiltration. But in fact the revelation by Lucy of the content of the message came in July or August 1941. At that time there was plenty of reason to think about Russia, as Hitler had just invaded the place.

By then she was a cloistered nun, and the Portuguese clerical-fascist régime could attribute to her anything they wanted people to hear or read. Nonetheless I think Lucy probably made up quite a bit of the detail of her visionary experiences. In later life she was kept in complete seclusion, under the watchful eye of Joseph Ratzinger, then in charge of the Holy Office.
 
I should have known better than trying to slip that cynical little comment about the kiddies at Fatima by you!
 
Brainache


No, we've discussed earlier in the thread that Church tradition is that Mark heard the sermons of Peter in Rome and collected them into a chronolgical narrative after Peter's death. The order of events, then, would be in part Mark's decision.

We had this discussion especially in connection with the institution narrative (14: 22-25), which appears to be older than Mark because Paul tells a similar incident (1 Corinthians 11: 23-25), not necessarily original with him, without a dinner context, whose only context is that it supposedly occurred sometime during the night Jesus was handed over.

So, even if the Peter-in-Rome bit is pure conjecture, that Mark had antecedents, and added to them time and place information at least, seems well-founded.

There is also the Two-gospel hypothesis idea by Griesbach in 1783 that Matthew was the first gospel with Luke being a side branch both of which were worked into Mark. There are a lot of problems with the hypothesis so its more of a curiosity then anything else.
 
max


We have no clear time marker for Jesus' (alleged) minstry, either. How long it lasted (a few weeks? or a few years?), and when John's arrest and death fell relative to the interval (before or during? after?) are ill specified. Church tradition says Mark didn't know the timeline or sequence of events. A crucifixion in 36 is fine for a historical Jesus who counts. Pilate is still nailing folks in Judea during 36.

How does this Church tradition deal with Mark 6:14 which has Herod regarding Jesus as John the Baptist returning from the dead?

Mark 1:14 seems to put Jesus ministry very close to John being in prison so while the timeline is a little wonky you can tease bit and pieces out.

According Yliyah Paul's The Message of the Kingdom: Is the Yahweh Seed The Passover of 36 CE is March 30 so we have a cutoff date for the Crucifixion of Jesus: no later then March 30, 36 CE.
 
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