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What causes entropy?

Can you elaborate on that? I don't understand how causality could be explained by entropy...

As far as we know, the fundamental laws of physics (i.e. those that apply to elementary particles and their interactions) are perfectly symmetric under time reversal (or to be precise, CPT symmetry). Therefore one wonders, why does it appear to us that the future is different from the past? Or to be more technical, what determines the direction of time in which entropy increases?

The only answer to that question that I know is that the place and time in the universe that we inhabit had in the past an entropy that was much lower than the equilibrium value. Therefore the entropy of our part of the universe is increasing, which allows interesting structures like life to exist, and at the same time determines the direction of time.

Why our part of the universe had a low entropy in the past is completely unknown.
 
Entropy

Entropy is a measure of the disorder of a system, and there is a greater probability that any system will be in a disordered, rather than an ordered, system. (last word should have been "state" -- TT)
It is common enough to equate entropy & disorder, but I don't think that's right. Entropy is something we can objectively define & calculate, whereas disorder is an entirely subjective concept which is not consistently defined and cannot be calculated. It's easy to think of entropy as "disorder" when dealing with something where we have common ideas of "order" (all the billiard balls in a triangle ready for the break) or "disorder" (all the billiard balls scattered around the table). But whether or not the high probability state of a system is "disordered" is not objective, and especially so if we are dealing with non-equilibrium systems. The habit of matching entropy with order/disorder is what allows creationists, for instance, to argue (falsely of course) about the impossibility of order arising from disorder as a proof for the impossibility of evolution.

I prefer to avoid the order/disorder business and retreat to the objective mathematics. Simply put, entropy is what the equations say it is. So, in classical thermodynamics (which deals with statistically very large numbers of particles), the entropy (S) for a system at a give temperature is S = Q/T where Q is the total heat energy content of the system and T is its temperature. In an equilibrium system where the temperature does not change, then the change in entropy (∆S) is easy enough to define: ∆S =∆Q/T. It's just a ratio of heat energy to temperature, and surely there is no sign of "order" and "disorder" in this classical view of entropy.

The transition to statistical mechanics is where probability, and the resultant appeal to order & disorder come into play. In this case the entropy for a system is defined as S = -k·[Pilog(Pi)], where Pi is the probability that particle "i" will be in a given microstate (that's the physical state of the particle itself), and all of the Pi are computed for the same macrostate (that's the average physical state of the entire system of particles; temperature for instance, which is related to the average kinetic energy of the particles that make up the system). If all of the microstate probabilities are the same, then that equation reduces to the simpler (and more commonly shown) equation S = k·log(Ω), where Ω is the total number of microstates which can result in the observed macrostate (i.e., how many ways are there to distribute kinetic energy over the particles of a system, such that they all result in the same temperature). Clearly Ω can be a huge number. (k is just Boltzmann's constant, 1.380658x10-23 Joules/Kelvin).

The statistical equations, unlike the classical equations, do not explicitly include either heat energy content or temperature. Nevertheless, the requirement that all of the particle microstate probabilities must be calculated for the same system macrostate ensure that the system must be in thermal equilibrium. So if you want to try dealing with entropy in a non-equilibrium system, you can't use the simplified equation, you have to use the equation that deals explicitly with individual particle probabilities.

As it turns out, one can show that the definitions of entropy from classical thermodynamics and statistical mechanics really amount to the same thing (but this is a non trivial exercise left for the student :D). Note that the popular level correspondence between entropy and disorder makes sense only in the statistical description, but is certainly not apparent in the classical description. This is not surprising, since classical thermodynamics deals only with properties averaged over extremely large numbers of discrete particles (temperature, pressure, volume & etc.), whereas statistical mechanics deals explicitly with the discrete particles. It is somewhat remarkable, really, that these two regimes of physics generate the same conclusions give the same physical system.

Hopefully this is not too mathematical to deal with so far, but I do it to emphasize my own point: Entropy is what the equations say it is. Forget about order, disorder, or anything else. The equations tell you what entropy is and they are in fact the definitive authority on the topic. And this is true throughout all of physics. If you want to know what X really is, go first to the equations and let them lead the way, not somebody's prosaic description. This is really necessary when dealing with topics like quantum mechanics, or relativity, where there are few handy concepts laying around, like order or disorder, that one can use to create an useful analogy. This is one of the reasons why the "alternative thinkers" we deal with in these fora almost always fail; they try to use words and skirt the equations, as if mathematics is somehow a foul means of understanding what's happening, when in reality it may well be the only means of understanding what's happening.

Now, moving on, the second law of thermodynamics, in classical thermodynamics, tells us that heat will not spontaneously flow from lower temperature to higher temperature systems (but of course refrigerators are not impossible because they are not spontaneous). An equivalent statement in both classical & statistical thermodynamics is that the entropy of a thermodynamically isolated system (sometimes described simply as "closed") will never decrease, but rather can remain constant or increase (the latter being more likely). But as Sol Invictus has already told us, the argument is entirely probabilistic despite being called a "law". It's just that the probability of the law being violated is so low we can easily ignore it (but one should always bear in mind that "improbable" and "impossible" are never synonymous). Boltzmann's original derivation of all this is (or at least was) still in print thanks the the Dover Reprint series, Lectures on Gas Theory. Otherwise, I find the old classics The Principles of Statistical Mechanics by Richard C. Tolman, or Statistical Physics by Gregory H. Wannier to be most useful references.
 
You do understand that deep down, everything is a statistical measurement? If not for any other reason, for quantum uncertainty?

That explains a lot...

quantum uncertainty, really?..your statement requires a lot of theories to be true.

statistical measurement...hmmm...statistics came first right? couldn't have sold those apples without statistics telling me how many to pick.

look,everything is only a statistical measure if it is included in such a study. if it is not included in a statistical study, then it's just plain old one off or group of events. which do you think will be around longer in the universe? your statistics or the events? which will really matter? is there entropy in your statistics?
get real
 
You do understand that deep down, everything is a statistical measurement? If not for any other reason, for quantum uncertainty?

That explains a lot...

what is a statistical measure anyway? can it calculate the output in lbs per square in of force upon the batter's arms of a bat swung at x inches per second when it impacts a baseball moving at y feet per second

oh wait, that might be probability and not statistical at all cause he might miss! or maybe there needs to be quantum units instead of feet per second
 
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I think the entropy is the measure of the number of possible states, and if each state has the same energy, it has the same entropy.

Thus, in the examples with the coins or the jar, each specific state has the same entropy.

100 coins all heads has the same entropy as 50 heads and 50 tails.

Just that the 50/50 state is more likely.

If states have the same energy they have the same entropy.
 
I think the entropy is the measure of the number of possible states, and if each state has the same energy, it has the same entropy.

Thus, in the examples with the coins or the jar, each specific state has the same entropy.

100 coins all heads has the same entropy as 50 heads and 50 tails.

Just that the 50/50 state is more likely.

If states have the same energy they have the same entropy.

Can someone explain how energy and entropy and this whole probability idea are related?

Like, does higher entropy mean lower energy, etc? Are they both two sides of the same coin (no relation to the example in question) ?
 
OT, I know, but I never fail to be amazed when I think of the fact that four million tons of hydrogen vanish every second in our Sun, converted into energy.

I know - and yet even so our sun will continue to allow billions of life forms to locally hold entropy at bay for billions of years. Hard to wrap ones mind around, even harder when one realizes how small and insignificant our sun is in the grand scheme of things.
 
As far as we know, the fundamental laws of physics (i.e. those that apply to elementary particles and their interactions) are perfectly symmetric under time reversal (or to be precise, CPT symmetry). Therefore one wonders, why does it appear to us that the future is different from the past? Or to be more technical, what determines the direction of time in which entropy increases?

The only answer to that question that I know is that the place and time in the universe that we inhabit had in the past an entropy that was much lower than the equilibrium value. Therefore the entropy of our part of the universe is increasing, which allows interesting structures like life to exist, and at the same time determines the direction of time.

Why our part of the universe had a low entropy in the past is completely unknown.

Ok let me word this in the way I would think about it and you tell me if it sounds good or you disagree.

If we view a system as a sequence of discrete states, you are saying that all of the fundamental laws of physics -- which are the state transition function -- operate the same way in both directions -- which implies that the state transition function is invertible ?

So if that is the case, the only way to determine which direction the sequence should proceed in is to look at the probability a given state would take a forward or backwards transition ? And that this boils down to proceeding along the sequence of transitions that increases entropy, because probability tells us that this sequence is simply the most probable?
 
what is a statistical measure anyway? can it calculate the output in lbs per square in of force upon the batter's arms of a bat swung at x inches per second when it impacts a baseball moving at y feet per second

For things the size of a baseball bat and on the energy scale of a human swinging a bat, you can calculate that fairly precisely, but there are still quantum effects. The smaller your bat gets and the higher the energies become, the more those effects become significant.
 
quantum uncertainty, really?..your statement requires a lot of theories to be true.

statistical measurement...hmmm...statistics came first right? couldn't have sold those apples without statistics telling me how many to pick.

look,everything is only a statistical measure if it is included in such a study. if it is not included in a statistical study, then it's just plain old one off or group of events. which do you think will be around longer in the universe? your statistics or the events? which will really matter? is there entropy in your statistics?
get real

Wow, is there a way you could arrange those statements in a more coherent fashion?
 
what is a statistical measure anyway? can it calculate the output in lbs per square in of force upon the batter's arms of a bat swung at x inches per second when it impacts a baseball moving at y feet per second
If you measure it once that is a statistic, if you measure it multiple times, that is a larger number of samples.
oh wait, that might be probability and not statistical at all cause he might miss! or maybe there needs to be quantum units instead of feet per second

You seem confused.
 
I know - and yet even so our sun will continue to allow billions of life forms to locally hold entropy at bay for billions of years. Hard to wrap ones mind around, even harder when one realizes how small and insignificant our sun is in the grand scheme of things.

Except nothing holds entropy at bay, life forms in particular create great amounts of entropy. Like digging up copper deposits and speading them around, or eating food.
 
For things the size of a baseball bat and on the energy scale of a human swinging a bat, you can calculate that fairly precisely, but there are still quantum effects. The smaller your bat gets and the higher the energies become, the more those effects become significant.

ok, lets understand what entropy actually is. it is not a statistic, it is a state of matter. it is not a chance probability either. we are also not talking about the effects of different energies or motions on the outcome.

we are not looking for the chances that something will equilibrate, nor are we looking for it's most likely region of occurrence or a trend line or some average of a bunch of events equilibrating. entropy is not always, and does not have to be chaos theory or anything other than what it describes.
 
Can someone explain how energy and entropy and this whole probability idea are related?

Like, does higher entropy mean lower energy, etc? Are they both two sides of the same coin (no relation to the example in question) ?


No, I can't, but if I could then I could describe what time is.

It is the same property whether you are looking at a macroscopic quality or microscopic.

Entropy is also the energy in a body which can do no work.

Like you can drop some Helium to absolute zero, but there is still energy in that drop but you can't use it.

But the equation tim thompson quoted actually relates entropy with the probability.

I'll take a stab at translating that into a coherent sentence.

The entropy of a system is -boltzmann's constant times the sum of the probabilities of each particular state times the natural log of the number of those particular states.

But I'm not really satisfied with that myself.
 
ok, lets understand what entropy actually is. it is not a statistic, it is a state of matter. it is not a chance probability either. we are also not talking about the effects of different energies or motions on the outcome.

we are not looking for the chances that something will equilibrate, nor are we looking for it's most likely region of occurrence or a trend line or some average of a bunch of events equilibrating. entropy is not always, and does not have to be chaos theory or anything other than what it describes.

This has nothing to do with what I posted.
 
How about a somewhat intuitive response that came to my mind--more of a question of how entropy manifests... to which the best answer seems to be that it shows up in inefficiency of converting energy--either into matter, or into another kind of energy.

This is caused by many things in normal experience, such as friction.
 
Except nothing holds entropy at bay, life forms in particular create great amounts of entropy. Like digging up copper deposits and speading them around, or eating food.

Hence the word "locally", for isn't that what a life form essentially does?
 
quantum uncertainty, really?..your statement requires a lot of theories to be true.

That particular statement? Just one.

One with lots of consequences, though.

Take your batter example, for instance. The ball is approaching, and you think you know how fast and what it will do. You swing and hit it.

However, quantum uncertainty says you cannot exactly know the momentum (mass times velocity) of the ball (or your bat, BTW) unless you give up knowing something about it's position. The very photons which are reflecting off it are changing its momentum, while giving your eagle eye an exact position. Granted this is not very important on the diamond, but it illustrates that at a very fine, very basic level of the universe all interactions are statistical; what we see at our living level looks like good solid examples of classical mechanics, but they are actually only very tight probabilities. If you deign to investigate the very small, then it will become apparent that statistics rules all.

Perhaps that's not important to you, but you ignore its existence at the cost of loosing understanding. Sort of an uncertainty principle in itself.
 
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