What "caused" the big bang?

sorgoth said:

You see, there's Nothing, which apparently isn't the absence of possibility, just matter. So fluctuations in this Nothing cause something(Of course, I use the word "Cause" to stop my head from exploding, since they are simply fluctuations, are aren't "Caused" by anything). Correct me if I'm wrong.
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However, your 'nothing' is actually full of 'something'! Possibility.

Why are quantum fluctuations even possible? You can never push away the question "Why is there anything at all rather than nothing?"

Adam
 
Nothing, there is the fly in the ointment,

there is no 'nothing' that it came from, there is the 'vacum energy' even when there is no matter. This is the current coolness in cosmology, even when there is no matter there is the energy of the universe, so perhaps we should ask how something came from nothing, but how something came from something.
 
Dancing David said:
Nothing, there is the fly in the ointment,

there is no 'nothing' that it came from, there is the 'vacum energy' even when there is no matter. This is the current coolness in cosmology, even when there is no matter there is the energy of the universe, so perhaps we should ask how something came from nothing, but how something came from something.
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That question has been asked a million times of a million things and it's been answered for a hell of a lot of them.

And 'vacuum energy' is not nothing. The possibility of a quantum flucuation is not nothing. So the question 'why is there something rather than nothing?' cannot be avoided with 'even when there is no matter there is something'. It only pushes the question back on level.

Adam
 
And 'vacuum energy' is not nothing. The possibility of a quantum flucuation is not nothing. So the question 'why is there something rather than nothing?' cannot be avoided with 'even when there is no matter there is something'. It only pushes the question back on level.
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Because, apparently, there is no such thing as true nothing. That's why. We have simply evolved to be able to think of the concept of nothing, even though it does not actually exist.

I think.
 
slimshady2357 said:


However, your 'nothing' is actually full of 'something'! Possibility.

Why are quantum fluctuations even possible? You can never push away the question "Why is there anything at all rather than nothing?"

Adam
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Yes, but does that require an answer Adam? Can't the Universe exist for its own sake so to speak?
 
Interesting Ian said:


Originally posted by slimshady2357


However, your 'nothing' is actually full of 'something'! Possibility.

Why are quantum fluctuations even possible? You can never push away the question "Why is there anything at all rather than nothing?"

Adam
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II
Yes, but does that require an answer Adam? Can't the Universe exist for its own sake so to speak?
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Just to expand a bit on this. Why is the beginning of the Universe considered to be more of a special event than any other event that has happened since then? Sure, we can say things happen by appealing to physical laws. But why are physical laws as they are? Why does the Universe continue to be able to be described by physical laws second by second? Why doesn't reality suddenly cease to be governed by physical laws and henceforth be wholly chaotic (ie random) in its behaviour? Why does the Universe continue to be in a state of beingness rather than spontaneously ceasing to exist?

The point being why is the event iniating all things considered to be more special than any other event since the very first event?
 
sorgoth said:


Because, apparently, there is no such thing as true nothing. That's why. We have simply evolved to be able to think of the concept of nothing, even though it does not actually exist.

I think.
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Obviously nothing doesn't exist! I think you're not understanding the question. The question is why did something arise?
 
Interesting Ian said:


Why is the beginning of the Universe considered to be more of a special event than any other event that has happened since then?
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Because we know very little about it, and, with all things, we humans feel it's very important to know as much as possible, especially about things we don't know about.

The concept of importance is pretty subjective. Over a long enough period of time, everyone's survival rate drops to zero, and I think the answer is it's only important to us.

The question is why did something arise?
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Another interesting question. Something we may not ever know. But then, what makes you say it arose? If there was nothing whatsoever before the big bang, not even time or space, then how do you define something arising? Someone else on this thread made a good point: The universe is finite in age and size, but there was never a time when the universe didn't exist.

Here's something else that came to me: The universe, under the Big Bang model, is finite, right? It's expanding, getting bigger. So logically we could go to the edge of the universe, right? See what's beyond the universe?
Well, no. If there was anything "beyond" the universe, it would still be considered part of the universe, right? And since the universe is all of space, then would it not be both finite and infinite? Can we define something, in the absence of the universe, with no time or space, as anything?

Here's an example: A number line. On our current number line, we have (in the positive direction) 0 to infinity. Infinity encompasses every number imaginable.

But say we only had 100 numbers on the number line, and no more. Nothing exists outside of 0 and 100. So why can't 0 to 100 be considered infinity?

So if you had an FTL spacecraft and a lot of free time, and you just "kept going", would you eventually fall over the "edge" of the universe into the nothingness that was there before the universe?
Can nothing exist, since it is, after all, nothing? Of course not.

And how could the universe "arise" out of nothing, if there is no such thing as absolute nothing?

I'm not saying these questions don't have answers. I'm just saying we might be able to comprehend the answers just yet.
 
sorgoth said:


Because, apparently, there is no such thing as true nothing. That's why. We have simply evolved to be able to think of the concept of nothing, even though it does not actually exist.

I think.
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I agree, there is no such thing as true nothing :D

But nonetheless, there is something.

Perhaps your answer to the question "Why is there something rather than nothing?" would be "Because there must be something, as 'nothing' cannot exist".

It sounds like an ancient greek argument to me. :)

Hmmmm, it makes me want to ask "Why this something then?". Which almost seems like a more answerable question. Interesting.

Adam
 
Interesting Ian said:


Yes, but does that require an answer Adam? Can't the Universe exist for its own sake so to speak?
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I think that is an acceptable answer in my mind.

Some people would not be satisfied with that answer, but it's good enough for me to pass as an answer, yes.

I don't pretend to know the answer to that question, but I wouldn't be surprised if was in that vein ;)

Adam
 
Our brains evolved in a way that makes us able to only view the world in terms of cause and effect.
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<sounds of evolution> eeeeeerrrrrrggggffffttttttpptftpfptprpfptppagagaslelblblblblbll<\sounds of evolution>

Wow, I understand now.

I'd share, but the only way you'd understand is if you had the capacity to know, in which case I wouldn't have to explain.

Eh, whata ya gonna do? :con2:
 
Re: We will never know because we can't.

Supercharts said:
It occurs to me that the way we have evolved to think about our environment is that everything has a cause. We accept that because of the nearly infinite times humans have observed causal relationships since the time we became sentient.

...

In other words we, as humans, made an initial mistake at the very beginning of our evolution and establishment of becoming sentient. Our brains evolved in a way that makes us able to only view the world in terms of cause and effect.
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I realize this is off subject, but I respectfully disagree. Your mind is just as much a result of the forces of chance as of causality. In other words, consider the counter-argument: that the human brain does NOT assume cause-and-effect. That would mean that results of your actions are evaluated based on likely effects rather than a causal absolute.

When you ask a girl - assuming you date girls :) - for a date, you do not know from causality whether the answer will be YES or NO. You know you have a % chance of a YES. This scenario describes most human behavior, most situations. The human mind is an estimating engine, more than a logic engine. You review the results of previous events to determine where to place your "bets". Even one or two prior events is enough to formulate an estimate of an effective strategy to accomplish a goal, even if that estimate is wildly incorrect.

The natural world may or may not be causal in nature, and the human brain may or may not mimic the natural world. That the world around us is causal is highly debatable.
 
The language we speak has much more to do with our cognitive concepts than any sort of evolution, from studies of babies and animals we do know that three is part of the brain that allows for 'object permanence' and'number line' but concepts of from soemthing something are most likely a product of language and education more than evolutionary biology.
 
Interesting Ian:
Just to expand a bit on this. Why is the beginning of the Universe considered to be more of a special event than any other event that has happened since then? Sure, we can say things happen by appealing to physical laws. But why are physical laws as they are? Why does the Universe continue to be able to be described by physical laws second by second? Why doesn't reality suddenly cease to be governed by physical laws and henceforth be wholly chaotic (ie random) in its behaviour? Why does the Universe continue to be in a state of beingness rather than spontaneously ceasing to exist?
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I'm impressed, Ian. Those are generally rational and interesting questions.

The bottom line is of course that we don't know why the laws of nature work, and continue to work, in the manner which science has unearthed. All we can say is that they do.

Given this, the reason why the beginning of the Universe is especially interesting and important, is that science as yet has no solid theory for this event. I.e., science can describe and predict accurately how most of the world works (or will work) but it has yet to zero in on how the Universe was created.
 
Interesting Ian said:


Ah yes, I forget. Materialists have shifted and fudged their position so much that 21st century materilism bears very little resemblance to the materialism espoused with the birth of modern science. So much for the good old mechanical philosophy.
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There we have it, in Ian's world, we're not allowed to LEARN and respond to LEARNING.

Why are we not surprised?

That's the strength of the scientific method, and of materialism. As we learn what material really does, we can CHANGE what materialism is, and remain connected to reality.

Now, Ian, what do YOU believe? Can we connect it to reality?
 
Re: Re: Re: We will never know because we can't.

Moccomouse said:

You can have cause without effect, but not an effect without cause when there is time involved.
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I have one atom of I 131. I watch for it to decay. What is the temporal cause of the exact time that it decays?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: We will never know because we can't.

jj said:


I have one atom of I 131. I watch for it to decay. What is the temporal cause of the exact time that it decays?
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Not sure what happened to my last post.
Also not sure what you're getting at. Maybe I should rephrase my last sentence, as I suppose a cause isn't a cause unless it has an effect.
 
Obviously nothing doesn't exist! I think you're not understanding the question. The question is why did something arise?
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Well, if there's a chance of something arising, and you have limitless time, it's GOING to arise eventually, right?
 
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