What about this crop circle?

[Limbo]

In other words, you can present no extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claims. Of course no extraordinary evidence is needed, as in your opinion your claims are not extraordinary. Is that right?

I imagine that from your perspective, I have at best ordinary evidence for my extraordinary claims...which is obviously not good enough for someone like yourself who has no firsthand experience with the paranormal and no inclination to gain any. So be it.

 

[AdMan]

I imagine that from your perspective, I have at best ordinary evidence for my extraordinary claims...which is obviously not good enough for someone like yourself who has no firsthand experience with the paranormal and no inclination to gain any. So be it.

What makes you think I have no inclination to gain any? I am not dismissing your arguments simply because they rely on paranormal explanations. I am just asking for evidence of them.

I would love to have firsthand experience of the paranormal, and I've looked, believe me. Just haven't gotten lucky yet.

 

[Limbo]

What makes you think I have no inclination to gain any? I am not dismissing your arguments simply because they rely on paranormal explanations. I am just asking for evidence of them.

I would love to have firsthand experience of the paranormal, and I've looked, believe me. Just haven't gotten lucky yet.

Sorry. Keep at it. I recommend finding the best shaman you can afford and hiring him or her to guide you. Or you could travel to a UFO hotspot and hangout there for a bit. You may get lucky.

Remember, goats don't experience the paranormal much. Unfortunately, a team of goats could make crop circles and hunt UFOs or ghosts or whatever for years and probably not experience anything genuinely paranormal. So as a rule be positive and try to have an open mind.

 

[tsig]

I guess maybe I've been rather selfish. Maybe I've been taking advantage of the opportunity to talk to a self-professed circlemaker in the UK, shotgunning him with questions and looking for patterns and whatnot.

Really I would rather pick his brain while I can, than try to find positive evidence that CAN'T be interpreted any other way. That's what it always boils down to, isn't it. Interpretation. The gap between the signifier and the signified belongs to the trickster archetype.

I think that the exploration of my explanation stalled here at post #846. Stray Cat misunderstands Jung, I think. To talk about my ideas, it helps to read a lot of Jung and a lot of Joseph Campbell and a lot of Karen Armstrong and a lot of Huston Smith. Other things too, like Robert Anton Wilson, Aldous Huxley, etc. I can't go deeply into my explanations without using their terminology. But Stray Cat couldn't answer my questions in post #846, so he just dodged them and demonstrated his misunderstanding of Jung. No shame, he is hard to understand. I've read many of his books and I still have a looong ways to go.

Jung made crop circles in the collective consciousness?

 

[tsig]

I can't sympathize with that. I've experienced too much of that which you would probably call supernatural to write it off.

So it's all about you. Rather that admit that you could be wrong you'd rather rewrite reality.

 

[23_Tauri]

I guess maybe I've been rather selfish. Maybe I've been taking advantage of the opportunity to talk to a self-professed circlemaker in the UK, shotgunning him with questions and looking for patterns and whatnot.

Really I would rather pick his brain while I can, than try to find positive evidence that CAN'T be interpreted any other way. That's what it always boils down to, isn't it. Interpretation. The gap between the signifier and the signified belongs to the trickster archetype.

With the greatest respect limbo, I don’t think you really ‘get’ the whole crop circle shebangle if you’re looking for “positive evidence that CAN'T be interpreted any other way” and your primary objective is to find something that for you demonstrates proof of non-human origin. (Aside: this is of course fine, understandable and often the case when people are new to crop circles generally.) Crop circles are a journey for every individual who chooses to interact with them. To divulge the identity of the creator destroys the mystery and it is the mystery surrounding the phenomenon which can – and does- lead people to ask themselves profound, life changing questions about the nature of reality. What ends up being so intriguing is not who or what makes crop circles, but what crop circles do to people. That's a fascinating psycho-social phenomenon and it can only happen if crop circles remain enigmatic creations.

There is no definitive litmus test for ‘genuineness’ (i.e. non-man made origin) of a crop circle. CC researchers have been searching for it for years. It just doesn’t exist. I’ll leave you to speculate as to why it doesn’t exist.

Keep looking for patterns, keep a sense of wonder about them, visit them if you can, but IMO you’re not going to get very far asking Stray Cat for a simple ‘one size fits all’ neat explanation of how to spot evidence (or not) of the paranormal in some flattened wheat.

 

[23_Tauri]

....(snip)..., like Robert Anton Wilson, ....(snip)...

Oh don't mention R Anton Wilson. It's because of a college-days fascination with the ramblings of RAW (and not wanting to give my age away, that was a long time ago) that I decided to have '23' in my moniker, in an ironic for a scepti-forum kind of way

Fittingly for this thread, 'The 23 Enigma' was the first time I came across confirmation bias at work.

 

[23_Tauri]

Did you see this? Ever seen anything like it?

http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2009/milkhill3/milk_hillwhitehorse14.jpg

On the subject of the crop recovering, this is an interesting formation from last year. A simple circle in flax, the crop had completely recovered within two days. I know this to be true, as I and one other gentleman spent far too long walking up and down every tramline looking for it a day or so (can't remember exactly) after it was reported. There was no trace of the circle. It had indeed completely disappeared....

http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2009/knolldown3/knolldown2009c.html

 

[Toke]

I can't sympathize with that. I've experienced too much of that which you would probably call supernatural to write it off.

Do you have any idea of how many kinds of woo you would have to believe in if you are consistent in that attitude?

Anything I can give you can be interpreted in more ways than one, and you and I obviously have different ideas about what constitutes an 'indication otherwise'.

(My bolding)

As I walked past the table a small slip of paper tell to the floor, when I put it back, it flew off again. It happened twice in a row*.

I could write it off to fairies, but I choose another invisible influence.
The air stream from my walking past, and then the air flow from my laptops cooling fan.

*Ok, I am slow in the morning.

 

[Alley Cat]

people prefer to read other people's thoughts

At last. I knew you were a secret bleever all along...

 

[fls]

Sorry. Keep at it. I recommend finding the best shaman you can afford and hiring him or her to guide you. Or you could travel to a UFO hotspot and hangout there for a bit. You may get lucky.

Remember, goats don't experience the paranormal much. Unfortunately, a team of goats could make crop circles and hunt UFOs or ghosts or whatever for years and probably not experience anything genuinely paranormal. So as a rule be positive and try to have an open mind.

I agree that once you forego credulity, it's hard to go back.

Linda

 

[Sledge]

So basically, if you don't believe in psi, you'll never find evidence of it. It must just be my cynical nature that makes me think this says more about the existance of psi than it does about me.

 

[Toke]

So basically, if you don't believe in psi, you'll never find evidence of it. It must just be my cynical nature that makes me think this says more about the existance of psi than it does about me.

Yes, you are simply close minded.

But think of the bright side of closed mindedness, if you don't believe in e.g. electricity, you cannot get hurt by it either.
That would be a great safety advantage for an electrician, unfortunately we are brainwashed to be pro electricity at trade school.

 

[Stray Cat]

Is that 'genuine' electricity, or 'man made' electricity?

 

[Toke]

Is that 'genuine' electricity, or 'man made' electricity?

 

[Limbo]

With the greatest respect limbo, I don’t think you really ‘get’ the whole crop circle shebangle if you’re looking for “positive evidence that CAN'T be interpreted any other way” and your primary objective is to find something that for you demonstrates proof of non-human origin.

I don't expect to find that at all. That's why I would rather pick Stray Cats brain, and yours as well since you seem to be a crop circle frequenter, than try to satisfy Toke or Adman with further evidence. Any evidence I give them they can (and will) interpret in a way consistent with their paradigm of thought. Nothing would change.

Of course they might interpret the evidence in a way consistent with my paradigm of thought (fat chance), but without my background in comparative mythology, comparative religion, and comparative mysticism they wouldn't see how or where it fits in.

(Aside: this is of course fine, understandable and often the case when people are new to crop circles generally.) Crop circles are a journey for every individual who chooses to interact with them. To divulge the identity of the creator destroys the mystery and it is the mystery surrounding the phenomenon which can – and does- lead people to ask themselves profound, life changing questions about the nature of reality. What ends up being so intriguing is not who or what makes crop circles, but what crop circles do to people. That's a fascinating psycho-social phenomenon and it can only happen if crop circles remain enigmatic creations.

What if I go out and make my own crop circle which, through a paranormal anomaly, leads me to ask myself profound, life changing questions about the nature of reality? In that case I would know the identity of the circle creator (me) and yet the magic is not destroyed.

There is no definitive litmus test for ‘genuineness’ (i.e. non-man made origin) of a crop circle. CC researchers have been searching for it for years. It just doesn’t exist. I’ll leave you to speculate as to why it doesn’t exist.

I again speculate that the definitive litmus test doesn't exist or is hidden from us because of the machinations of the trickster archetype. If humanity could get control of its own collective psyche we could overcome that, but alas for now it seems out of our reach.

 

[Limbo]

On the subject of the crop recovering, this is an interesting formation from last year. A simple circle in flax, the crop had completely recovered within two days. I know this to be true, as I and one other gentleman spent far too long walking up and down every tramline looking for it a day or so (can't remember exactly) after it was reported. There was no trace of the circle. It had indeed completely disappeared....

http://www.cropcircleconnector.com/2009/knolldown3/knolldown2009c.html

Hmm. Is that common? If a crop circle recovers like that, does it mean that none of the plants were broken or damaged by the stomperboard or feet? I mean would damaged plants recover like that?

 

[Limbo]

Do you have any idea of how many kinds of woo you would have to believe in if you are consistent in that attitude?

Only one kind of woo - psi. Other kinds of woo are actually psi effects in disguise, for instance if I am consistent in that attitude then homeopathy is not really about the chemical or the water or the methodology, it's about the unconscious mind-over-matter psi of the homeopath and patient.

 

[23_Tauri]

I don't expect to find that at all. That's why I would rather pick Stray Cats brain, and yours as well since you seem to be a crop circle frequenter, than try to satisfy Toke or Adman with further evidence. Any evidence I give them they can (and will) interpret in a way consistent with their paradigm of thought. Nothing would change.

Of course they might interpret the evidence in a way consistent with my paradigm of thought (fat chance), but without my background in comparative mythology, comparative religion, and comparative mysticism they wouldn't see how or where it fits in.

Limbo, you are free to hold a belief about there being a paranormal aspect to crop circle creation, but it is belief held without evidence that would be accepted by others as proof. That’s the nature of belief. It rests on faith.

Although I don’t speak for them, I guess that if Toke and Adman have a ‘paradigm of thought’ it’s that to accept that something other than humans is involved in cc creation then they want their hypothesis falsified i.e. humans don’t make crop circles. Nothing has been presented in the last few decades of cc research to falsify this claim. However, I would add that there are some events that perplex me.

For example, I linked earlier today to the flax formation at Beckhampton Down. For me, that was the most noteworthy event of the summer. A simple circle. I know the person who managed to visit the formation before it disappeared. He reported that that the plants were lightly brushed over at half stem height with no signs of mechanical crushing or flower heads being disturbed. When you walk in flax in full bloom you will knock off the purple petals. I can’t verify what he saw but he’s a reliable chap I’ve known for a while. Sadly, this formation was pretty much over-looked by the rest of the cc fraternity, in favour of the big, impressive designs down the road.

What if I go out and make my own crop circle which, through a paranormal anomaly, leads me to ask myself profound, life changing questions about the nature of reality? In that case I would know the identity of the circle creator (me) and yet the magic is not destroyed.

I think it would take a bit more than one crop circle, and you might want to observe others interacting with your crop circle too.

I again speculate that the definitive litmus test doesn't exist or is hidden from us because of the machinations of the trickster archetype. If humanity could get control of its own collective psyche we could overcome that, but alas for now it seems out of our reach.

The trickster archetype exists in people and is alive and well in Wiltshire. It is this that challenges and transforms our way of thinking. Why would you want it to be overcome?

 

[fls]

I again speculate that the definitive litmus test doesn't exist or is hidden from us because of the machinations of the trickster archetype. If humanity could get control of its own collective psyche we could overcome that, but alas for now it seems out of our reach.

Dude, if you're looking to overcome the trickster archetype or question the nature of reality, Naturalism has lapped Supernaturalism about a gazillion times in that regard. Look how hard you have had to struggle to accomplish a wee bit of what Naturalism does with ease?

Linda