What about this crop circle?

[realpaladin]

See post number 13.

Yes, but this was a list for li'll Limbo. A sort of reader's digest, if you will.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Making crop circles is time consuming, hard work.... It's hardly going to happen that after a few hours of plotting out and stomping that someone is going to kneel down in the center of a circle and say "It's too much hard work to twist this bunch of stalks up and bend them over in a nice nest"

Well said.

Perhaps more importantly, even if it took days or weeks to do and really was a very very difficult skill to learn, it would still not argue in favor of the space-aliens or paranormal hypotheses.

I've got the Olympics on TV, and there you will see plenty of examples of skills and abilities that are beyond the ability of the vast majority of humans (unlike trampling crops or doing some crude weaving).

Limbo, do you suppose the Olympics are evidence of space-alien intervention or paranormal activity?

 

[Stray Cat]

.
Shurely, but with modern graphics designs, and collitch kids that can't get a date on Saturday night, (or any other night), spoofing the public while drunk and inventive has its giggles.

Circlemakers who are 'drunk' make these:

Sober circlemakers make these:

Whatever the public makes of them... well, when the jeannie is out of the bottle...

 

[Alley Cat]

Yes I am. And don't call me Surely.

Sorry, "Surely" is such a nice name, but if you don't like it I won't assign it to you.

Sorry also. Had to nip off there to watch Aiden Turner in Being Human.

No, I won't be drawn into this favourite pastime of old lags on the JREF which is, when you can't say "Yes I agree" you instead ask for More and More and More evidence, sending your JREF friends off on futile, time consuming, irrelevant Google searches (oh yes, hardly any real research done on here) which keeps some of them up ALL night long, in their pathetic naive innocence, believing they will actually score a point with their offerings.

No, sorry. The photos you already supplied show that anybody with a teeny weeny bit of analysis/design skill would find it tougher to design and knit a fingerless glove than to analyse and design one of those crop circles.

I have designed and knitted a fingerless glove. The only difference is in the stamina and strength required for the other activity - creating the crop circle.

To suggest that the crop circles are Soooo intricate and clever that a human could not sit at home designing the art, planning the creation, then motor down to the field at whatever time of day, pick one or two suitable tools (maybe a pair of hands included), and set to work within a pre-planned time-frame - shows that you have never been on an analysis course, or a team leadership course and have never knitted a pair of fingerless gloves, a jumper or even a scarf to your own design.

And to suggest that a crop circle, any crop circle regardless of complexity, is beyond the capabalities of Man so therefore must be the work of some paranormal event... shows that you are not a Woman !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm going to bed now and shall not be wasting further time on this discussion. But shall be observing with much mirth.

Nighty nite

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

.
Shurely, but with modern graphics designs,

Such as advanced graphic design technology like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirograph

Obviously something beyond human ingenuity!

 

[Stray Cat]

Wouldn't you consider the effect of the circles in the public media (that is, the "hoax" aspect) as party of the art-concept?

I think the effect in the public is completely the art concept.

I think you're setting up a false dichotomy here. That is, if it's art, it can't also be a hoax. It's obviously they're treating themes that are common among those who believe we're being visited by aliens.

Some designs are no doubt feeding the UFOlogists, some the 2012 crowd... but mostly they are very ambiguous pieces of geometry which can be interpreted in a multitude of ways. This allows each individual 'camp' to interpret them to fit their pet belief. As to the false dichotomy, I'd have to say there is none, of course something can be a hoax AND a piece of art. What I was saying is that it's not the circlemakers who are hoaxing anything. They simply make the formation and walk away, any interpretation done and claims made is entirely down to the individual who looks at the finished product. This is the life of the artwork and because it takes on a life of it's own it's more interesting to watch the myths grow around it than it is to look at the actual crop circle.

ETA: Consider for comparison, the performance art of Andy Kaufman. The wrestling stuff, the Tony Clifton stuff, the Fridays skit, etc. Hoaxes or art? Or maybe both?

Indeed and agreed.

 

[fuelair]

The "Crop Circles" were made by humans, with nothing more elaborate than string, lumber, manual labour and maybe a computer-generated blueprint. To claim this is not to engage in creating a hoax.

To claim that the "Crop Circles" were created by space aliens, microwaves, gravimetric holography or any other agent that either does not exist or that could not possibly manipulate grain is to engage in a hoax.

To fall for the hoax displays a lapse or lack of reasoning skills.

Some people will believe anything, unless there is real, scientifically-vetted and repeatably verifiable evidence to back it up. Just as there are some people that will perpetrate a hoax solely for personal gain or attention. These people are low-lifes.

So then, the question becomes, "How low can they go?"

Don't forget that there are a subset of the believers that will believe anything EVEN if there is real, scientifically-vetted and repeatably verifiable evidence to back up the fact that it is a hoax.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I think the effect in the public is completely the art concept.

I think you underestimate how many people see these things as either genuine ET-made things or hoaxes of ET-made things. I'm sure the artists who produce them are aware of this.

ETA: I would add too that without the media attention that was the result of the fact that there are many believers, crop circle making wouldn't have continued on. So even if it is reasonable to construe it as an art movement, it's an art movement that can only exist with full knowledge of the hoax aspect of it.

As to the false dichotomy, I'd have to say there is none, of course something can be a hoax AND a piece of art.

I'm sorry, but earlier you said:

I don't see crop circles as a 'hoax' anyway.

So apparently you have changed position. I agree crop circles are both art and hoax. Indeed, I think they're more like performance art than any other realm of art. That is, part of the art is the press response, the doing the stalk-smashing at night, the satire in some of the themes etc. I do recognize that there is also a strong aesthetics component. At least one motivation is that they are beautiful creations. But they'd be beautiful creations even if done on a different scale in another medium.

What I was saying is that it's not the circlemakers who are hoaxing anything. They simply make the formation and walk away, any interpretation done and claims made is entirely down to the individual who looks at the finished product.

I disagree. I think there is an intention on the part of the makers to play with the believers, and thus part of their intention is to hoax people.

Again, the same with Andy Kaufman. It's obvious that he was doing a lot to make sure that even reasonable people weren't sure if what he was doing was meant to be performance or if it was real.

 

[Limbo]

Making crop circles is time consuming, hard work.... It's hardly going to happen that after a few hours of plotting out and stomping that someone is going to kneel down in the center of a circle and say "It's too much hard work to twist this bunch of stalks up and bend them over in a nice nest"

A 'nest' can be formed in seconds. Try it in some long grass next time you get the opportunity.

How many crop circles have you made?

That reminds me of this crop circle with intact bird nests in it. Pretty cool.

[...]

"Visual examination of the plants revealed no expulsion cavities and only minimal apical node elongation and no magnetic particles were recovered by magnetic drag. The lay of the crop, however, was moderately intricate with 3 layers of crop found at several points within the downed-plant areas, and moderate nodal bending was also documented. The crop in the 7 curved arcs flowed INTO the center of the overall formation, flowing both under and over the lay of the inner ring. Two bird's nests were also found, totally intact, in the laid crop--one of which was still attached to the wheat stalks upon which it had been built. The other nest appears to be of a tree-dwelling species and must have been blown, or carried, into the downed crop--perhaps during the event."

[...]

Stray cat, how many layers do your circles have? Do you have your arcs flow into the center, both above and below? Looks pretty time consuming. Looks like the kind of thing circlemakers don't talk about doing. Or do they?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

How many crop circles have you made?

Ah--so now you're resorting to ad hominem arguments.

How low can you go, Limbo?


(I confess--I've been looking for an opportunity to work that in.)

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Stray cat, how many layers do your circles have?

And why does this matter? Is repetition something only space aliens are capable of?


And why does this matter? Is repetition something only space aliens are capable of?

 

[JimBenArm]

I haven't kept up with the crop circle silliness, obviously. Before, it was flat stated that only extraterrestrials could make these things. I guess after being shown repeatedly they could be, now they say "oh, sure, humans MAKE them, but only under the extrasensory spell of extraterrestrials!"
I mean, what other explanation could there be? Humans coming up with intricate designs? Humans doing complex structures? And doing it for no discernible reason? Never happened in the history of ever!

 

[Limbo]

A 'nest' can be formed in seconds. Try it in some long grass next time you get the opportunity.

How many seconds do you estimate this one took?

 

[JimBenArm]

How many seconds do you estimate this one took?

[qimg]http://davidpratt.info/crop/crop9708b.jpg[/qimg]

I think it would be more interesting to hear you say how long you think it took.

Or even what's so special about it?

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

How many seconds do you estimate this one took?

That's irrelevant. Why do you think this is something impossible for humans to do without any ET or paranormal activity?

 

[Stray Cat]

I think you underestimate how many people see these things as either genuine ET-made things or hoaxes of ET-made things. I'm sure the artists who produce them are aware of this.

My viewpoint is from the position of artist... But I don't underestimate croppies at all. I know a lot of them personally and so am able to judge how they are reacting.

ETA: I would add too that without the media attention that was the result of the fact that there are many believers, crop circle making wouldn't have continued on. So even if it is reasonable to construe it as an art movement, it's an art movement that can only exist with full knowledge of the hoax aspect of it.

The history of the crop circles in it's popular phase started with Colin Andrews, Terrence Meaden and Pat Delgado bringing the crop circles to the attention of the media, yes and it is true to say that media interest in crop circles goes in troughs and peaks. The cycle works like this:
some circles are made, some media interest is generated, more new recruit croppies visit the field and see the work, leading to more circlemakers introduced to circlemaking. Media exposé of how it's all people doing them and interest dies down, leading to less people making them, until the cycle repeats.
The symbiotic relationship between artist, audience and media is key to keeping the movement alive.

I'm sorry, but earlier you said:


So apparently you have changed position.

No not at all, I don't see crop circles as hoaxes but if you wish to see them as hoaxes, I can take that on board and run with it. The false dichotomy doesn't exist because something can be hoax and art. But also it doesn't exist if I don't consider them to be hoaxes, I consider them to be art and we all know that art can be art.

I agree crop circles are both art and hoax. Indeed, I think they're more like performance art than any other realm of art. That is, part of the art is the press response, the doing the stalk-smashing at night, the satire in some of the themes etc. I do recognize that there is also a strong aesthetics component. At least one motivation is that they are beautiful creations. But they'd be beautiful creations even if done on a different scale in another medium.

It actually goes further than performance art. In this case, the performance s done by the audience, not the artist and beyond making the circle, he has no sway over how the performance will play out.

I disagree. I think there is an intention on the part of the makers to play with the believers, and thus part of their intention is to hoax people.

There a distinction between making an anonymous piece of (for example Mayan) art in order to fuel a speculative audience and making it to deceive them. Any deceit is completely self induced on the part of the audience and even knowing this is a direct result of the circlemakers actions doesn't really transfer the responsibility onto him/her. When the regular(ish) religious hoaxes are reported where a statue cries blood, it is the responsibility of the person who made the statue or the one's who are making the claim of it bleeding?

Again, the same with Andy Kaufman. It's obvious that he was doing a lot to make sure that even reasonable people weren't sure if what he was doing was meant to be performance or if it was real.

Admittedly, if the circlemakers were all completely out in the open and also not battling against the tide of blind belief (in as much as what ever they say is hand waved away by the Church of the Crop Circle), people would lose interest immediately. That's because the people who come into croppydom are wanting the exotic, not the mundane truth. So anonymity has to be kept and ambiguity has to be provided otherwise the game would be up, as it would have been with Kaufman if everyone was 'in on it' so to speak.

 

[Stray Cat]

How many crop circles have you made?

If you know anything about crop circles and circlemakers you will know how silly that question is.

That reminds me of this crop circle with intact bird nests in it. Pretty cool.
[...]

"Visual examination of the plants revealed no expulsion cavities and only minimal apical node elongation

Explain to me what 'expulsion cavities' are?
No infact I'll tell you, they are a fictional characteristic of some plants that get bent. Not that the markings are fictional, but certainly the completely made up name (made up by William Levengoode) to attempt to describe his misguided theory as to what causes them.
Infact nothing is 'expulsed' (the inference here being that it is under some sort of heat induced pressure) and it hardly leaves a cavity (except for a small space where the sap has slowly leaked out and the plant has dried around the wound to prevent further damage to it's self. And apical node elongation (commonly know by agriculture experts and biologists as Phototropism) is the plant's natural ability to correct it's self and grow towards the light. It naturally bends at the nuckles like our fingers do. This process sometimes induces a lengthening and the exact same thing has been noted and recorded in 'lodging' (wind/waterloged damaged crop)

and no magnetic particles were recovered by magnetic drag.

Which means?

The lay of the crop, however, was moderately intricate with 3 layers of crop found at several points within the downed-plant areas, and moderate nodal bending was also documented. The crop in the 7 curved arcs flowed INTO the center of the overall formation, flowing both under and over the lay of the inner ring. Two bird's nests were also found, totally intact, in the laid crop--one of which was still attached to the wheat stalks upon which it had been built. The other nest appears to be of a tree-dwelling species and must have been blown, or carried, into the downed crop--perhaps during the event."

If you can't figure out a totally human chain of events that could lead to layering of crop then you really need to study harder. With this one, even a diagram probably wouldn't help because it's so inaccurate. But I think the inaccuracy is part of the reason why some layers go over the center circle and some go under it. As for the birds nests. They are usually made out of twigs and moss and other things that spring back into shape when flattened, especially from the top.

Stray cat, how many layers do your circles have? Do you have your arcs flow into the center, both above and below? Looks pretty time consuming. Looks like the kind of thing circlemakers don't talk about doing. Or do they?

Maybe they don't talk specifically about it because that would be a really boring conversation? Maybe it's just an artifact of the construction order of the components?

 

[I Ratant]

All CCs are "hoaxes" in that they're formed to amuse the makers with the silliness that follows from the gullible who wish to find ETs handiwork thereinto.
Equally, all CCs are genuine because they exist, if only to fool the gullible, etc.
Some are made for the hoax aspect and for the "wouldn't it be neat to do this" on the weekend in the crowd that makes these things.

 

[Stray Cat]

All CCs are "hoaxes" in that they're formed to amuse the makers with the silliness that follows from the gullible who wish to find ETs handiwork thereinto.

Actually, most circlemakers have a strange respect for their audience.
But if you wish to think that spending night after night in the fields of Wiltshire doing more and more complex, bigger designs until it almost becomes a full time job (with no pay) for the 'sillyness' of it, then that's just another myth that surrounds the circles and all is cool and probably nothing I say will change anything, which is also cool.

 

[Limbo]

If you know anything about crop circles and circlemakers you will know how silly that question is.

How many crop circles have you made and/or contributed to? Give me a straight answer plz.

Maybe they don't talk specifically about it because that would be a really boring conversation? Maybe it's just an artifact of the construction order of the components?

Maybe. I'm not ruling it out. I have no first-hand crop circle experience, as I do with psi and "UFOs". So I'm not taking as strong a stance about crop circles as I do about psi. I think there is a connection between crop circles and psi, so sue me.