What about the religious organizations?

Yeah, wimps eh? We leave all the actual violence to christians and muslims.

And the pacifism. My first family were Mennonite. Way more passive than the atheists I know, including myself.

Anyway, I prefer to lead by example. If atheists think violence is wrong, how could we participate and claim moral highground?



I'd be asking why you are wasting your time, actually. You're the one sitting around writing inane replies to someone you've pre-judged.

I think you have to step back a bit and think about whether the communication problem is a reflection on me or you... two events in this thread come to mind:

1. An earlier exchange about age. another participant was under the impression that you were very young, based on your postings. He was incorrect. However, what is ironic is that you took pride in coming across as a petulant 12-year-old.

2. Your posts describe a 'war' and tactics of 'getting in their faces' and '******** in their bibles', but is in fact, a passive organization. I am not 'prejudging' I am postjudging quite appropriately, based on what you have provided for us.
 
You can't say he obviously knows he's lying. There are plenty of these guys who believe in their 'gift'. What's your evidence?

Hinn? He's been caught cheating. Exposed on national television, thanks to James Randi. He's gone way beyond benefit of the doubt.
 
What? I have religious folks at my door once a month. They are not just going to relatives' houses or whatever it is you are claiming here.

Seems more like an excuse here rather than a debate point. Certainly people going to psychics 'believe' before they give up their money, and I've never had a psychic soliciting at my door or even on the phone.

They solicit on television, radio, newspapers, magazines, and on the web... Psychic Friends Network was the big operation. Youree Dell Harris' "Madame Cleo's Psychic Friends Hotline" was also a huge hit, and finally busted. Cleo owes her victims damages something in the neighbourhood of 1.6 billion. That's a lotta stolen dough. At its peak, MCPFH was raking in half a billion dollars a year, or approximately ten times the annual revenues of Pat Robertson's 700 Club.

That's my definition of a BIG scam.

My point isn't that we should drop a critical view of religious claims - it's that there is a lot of low-hanging fruit out there, and we can have some high-profile and meaningful results if we pick our battles.

My other point is that skepticism is a big tent, and we have to accept that not everybody has the same pet peeve, and each participant can and should focus on what motivates her.
 
Skeptigirl, I think blutoski means that statistically pretty much everyone is already religious. But I could be wrong.

blutoski did not, for example, say "Most of the people they are visiting belong to the same church or denomination".

Yes, that's basically what I was getting at. The solicitors may have been pricks, but there's something way prickier: ******** in the victims' bibles while they're praying for the soul of their lost relative.

PS: Is 'prickier' a word?
 
Hinn? He's been caught cheating. Exposed on national television, thanks to James Randi. He's gone way beyond benefit of the doubt.
I was talking about John Edward. Where did Hinn come in to this? Yes, Hinn has been exposed as a fraud. Yet there he is, still out there cheating huge crowds of people.
 
And speaking of Hinn, there have been plenty of religious frauds. A certain air conditioned dog house and a lot of eye make up comes to mind.
 
Sort of like how Seven Habits is a trojan horse for Mormonism into the enterprise.

It is? I've read it. I found it really helpful. While the author is clearly religious, I don't recall that he even mentions what religion he is. How is it a trojan horse for Mormonism?
 
Here is am example of the danger of religion, reprinted with thanks to eSkeptic.

Ann Coulter is a main voice of Christianity in America, and here is what she has to say in her latest book, according to this review. Her opinions represent that of about half of the people in the United States.

eSkeptic said:
eSkeptic the email newsletter of the Skeptics Society
Thursday, September 21st, 2006 ISSN 15565696


A REVIEW OF
GODLESS: THE CHURCH OF LIBERALISM

by Matthew Provonsha

Ann Coulter's new book is vulgar propaganda that goes against both
science and reason. She has made a living as the cruel darling of
the Religious Right, and in this book she aims her harsh rhetoric
against, among other things, evolutionary biology, atheism, and what
she calls "liberalism." The entire book in fact is a sustained
attack on a group that doesn't even exist, namely "liberals," in the
sense of the word that Coulter has made up.

In her own words, Coulter's thesis is that "Liberalism IS a
religion." She even refers to liberalism as "the state-sanctioned
religion." This is borderline conspiracy theory, from the woman who
called the Branch Davidians "harmless American citizens." In a kind
of transubstantiation, we are supposed to believe that despite all
outward appearances, our government is actually controlled by
atheists. She says, "Democrats revile religion," and "liberals love
to boast that they are not 'religious.'"

This is absurd. Coulter sticks to generalizations because she can't
give any cogent examples. Martin Luther King Jr. was undeniably
Christian and liberal, but I doubt she had him in mind when she
wrote, "I would be crestfallen to discover any liberals in heaven."
Ann Coulter is going to heaven and Martin Luther King Jr. is not?
For shame.

Coulter can't name a godless president or member of Congress. The
last two Democratic presidents have been born-again Christians, and
the vast majority of liberals are Christian, yet Coulter defines
"liberals" as people who reject notions of God and an immortal soul.
Meanwhile, the overtly Christian Republican Party is in control of
all three branches of government. In this aspect of the book, as in
others, it is exceedingly difficult to take Coulter seriously, and
it is hardly surprising that many commentators on the left and right
have questioned her sincerity.

ID proponent William Dembski wrote on his blog that he takes full
responsibility for any errors in the last few chapters of the book,
which deal with evolution. Several websites have pointed out plenty
of them, so if he was being honest, he has got his work cut out for
him. But it doesn't matter how much evidence there is against
Coulter because she just lies when the truth gets in the way of her
agenda. She lies brazenly in the book about the Dover trial, which
ruled the teaching of ID in science classrooms unconstitutional.
According to Coulter: "They won the way liberals always win: by
finding a court to hand them everything they want on a silver
platter." Here Ann Coulter shows herself to be either completely
incompetent or deliberately deceptive. The judge that presided over
Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District is a life-long Republican
and a church-goer, appointed to the federal bench in 2002 by
President George W. Bush. Clifford A. Rieders, the former president
of the Pennsylvania Trial Lawyers Association and a Democrat, said
Judge Jones is "universally well regarded." Coulter's attempt to
smear him is transparently motivated by her ideological concerns,
not the facts.

Like other bigots, Ann Coulter attacks what she perceives to be easy
targets. In the past she has attacked Arabs, Muslims, and
homosexuals, and in this book she saves some of her harshest words
for environmentalists and America's most mistrusted minority,
atheists. She writes, "The theory of vegetarianism is that Americans
consume 'too much' energy." To the contrary, vegetarianism is not a
theory at all, it is the practice of not eating meat. There are a
variety of reasons for practicing vegetarianism, and an individual
vegetarian's choice to avoid meat may have nothing at all to do with
concerns about over-consumption or inefficient consumption. She
adds, "Environmentalists' energy plan is the repudiation of America
and Christian destiny, which is Jet Skis, steak on the electric
grill, hot showers, and night skiing."

This consumerist position is untenable in light of much of Christian
and American intellectual history. Coulter can't point to a verse in
the New Testament promoting self-indulgence that could justify the
conspicuous consumption of the rich while tens of thousands die
every day due to malnutrition and easily treatable diseases. Jesus
exhorts his followers, "Sell that which you have, and give gifts to
the needy," and seek treasures in heaven instead of on earth.
Nowhere in Coulter's book does she express concern for the troubled
people of the third world where there are food and drug shortages,
or for the poor in this country who can't even afford healthcare,
much less jet skis or night skiing.

Coulter's religion is not like that of the author of the Book of
Proverbs, who prayed for neither poverty nor riches but, "only the
necessaries of life." Her religion is not like St. Thomas Aquinas's,
who went so far as to say that anything held in superabundance must
be given to provide for the sustenance of the poor. If we are to
infer "Christian destiny" by looking at Christian history, we see
that Coulter's ideal is nothing like the ideal put forth by most
Christian leaders of the past. St. Francis of Assisi prayed, "O
Divine Master, grant that I may not so much seek," but Coulter has
said that the Biblical view is to "rape the planet."

Coulter's distortion of history in order to misrepresent atheism is
particularly disturbing. She wants us to believe that the horrors of
Nazi Germany, the USSR, and the People's Republic of China are in
some way due to atheism and acceptance of evolution. "Hitler's
world-view was based on Darwinism, not God," she writes. This is
clearly a lie designed to denounce Darwinism by association. It is
contrary to Hitler's own words, as even a cursory reading of Mein
Kampf shows. In it Hitler writes, "Hence today I believe I am
acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by
defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the
Lord." Though she claims that Hitler cited Darwin, she can't
substantiate it, and thus this is yet another baseless assertion.
Hitler was obviously either heavily influenced by Christian beliefs,
or wanted to appear as though he was. Along with various other
influences, Nazism undoubtedly drew from a long-standing Christian
tradition of anti-Semitism. As far as I can discern, Hitler never
even mentioned Darwin; rather, he repeatedly claimed to be doing the
will of Providence.

Coulter's attempt to blame Darwin for the horrific famines in China
is ironic given that they occurred partly because Communist
scientists rejected Darwin. Denying what they called "capitalist
science," they paved the way for agricultural catastrophe. Coulter
even suggests that Darwin is to blame for "Stalinist gulags." In
reality, Stalin sent scientists to gulags for espousing Darwinian
evolution.

Throughout the book Coulter never argues her points, but makes ad
hominem attacks and false analogies, attacks straw-men and blatantly
misrepresents history. She can't even distinguish between Darwinism
and Social Darwinism. She is as bad on ethics as she is on science,
and is completely inept regarding logical reasoning. When she says
atheists are always the ones practicing genocide, she shows that she
hasn't even read her scriptures.

There is no "church of liberalism," there isn't even "liberalism,"
in Coulter's sense. Liberals are not "pro-abortion," and no atheist
hates God. Godless is a ridiculous book and Ann Coulter lies
flagrantly and is as self-righteous as she is malicious. The most
controversial line in the book is her condemnation of four 9/11
widows who chose to involve themselves in politics: "I have never
seen people enjoying their husbands' death so much." But it's not
the only nasty thing she wrote in the book and she has said even
worse things in the past. She has used epithets like "raghead,"
"paki," and "gay boy." She actually said, "My only regret with
Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building."

Coulter's fans apparently consider death threats and violent
rhetoric humorous, and she doesn't disappoint them. She is a
hate-mongering reactionary who has said she is for public flogging,
and against women's suffrage. I wish I were making this up. Godless
is a boring collection of rants filled with utterly mind-boggling
absurdities, like, "public schools are the Left's madrassas," "The
most important value to liberals is destroying human life" (in
reference to abortion), and "liberals made up Watergate." We needn't
worry about misinterpreting her words because she has repeatedly
told interviewers that she believes everything she wrote in the
book. She has even said that she never regrets anything she has ever
said and she wouldn't have said anything differently. Even if the
cynics are right to say that Coulter is laughing all the way to the
bank and that she doesn't really believe any of it, it still
reflects horribly on our media that gives her a national platform,
and on our culture in which she is thriving with a lucrative
speaking career and best-selling books.
 
I read (most of) that this morning, snooziums.

It nearly made me ill. Good thinking to post it here.
 
Here is am example of the danger of religion, reprinted with thanks to eSkeptic.

Ann Coulter is a main voice of Christianity in America, and here is what she has to say in her latest book, according to this review. Her opinions represent that of about half of the people in the United States.

As a deeply religious person I want to be the first to distance myself from anything Ann the Man Coulter has to say.

She does NOT speak for the christian movement she does NOT speak for half of america...she speaks cause mainstream news has no idea what they are doing and she at least can be entertaining to some..


Nothing I have ever read, felt or heard about God would be cause to generate the hate that spews from her mouth on a daily basis. Her God is the almighty dollar and that is the only thing she worships...
 
Sorry, I missed this, but there are a couple of things I want to respond to:
And the pacifism. My first family were Mennonite. Way more passive than the atheists I know, including myself.
I didn't say anything about atheists being pacifists, I said I am a pacifist. You'd only have to spend 10 minutes in the politics forum here to accept that atheists are not by nature pacifists. Some atheists are absolute war-mongering neo-fascists.
Anyway, I prefer to lead by example. If atheists think violence is wrong, how could we participate and claim moral highground?
One can have a war on poverty or illiteracy without a shot being fired, that's the kind of war I'm referring to. I think there's plenty of anecdotal evidence that religion can't be suppressed by physical force.
I think you have to step back a bit and think about whether the communication problem is a reflection on me or you... two events in this thread come to mind:

1. An earlier exchange about age. another participant was under the impression that you were very young, based on your postings. He was incorrect. However, what is ironic is that you took pride in coming across as a petulant 12-year-old.
I think if you re-read that you'll see that I wasn't doing any such thing. My only comment about it was to point out (quite correctly as it turned out) that I bet I left school before he was born.

Communication skills, partly dialect and partly deliberate. People often mistake my Antipodean wit or sarcasm as actual opinion. I don't usually bother correcting them and often reply in vein.(and yes, I know that's an arrogant attitude) You have been clear in asking questions without assuming too much and you get straightforward answers. I often speak about burning churches or killing christians metaphorically too. I've found that sceptics like to take things very literally, which is all the more encouragement for me to be more obscure than really necessary, because I feel that there needs to be a limit where commonsense kicks in.

Have you ever known or heard of someone defecating on a bible? Because I certainly haven't. If you have a look at the post where I put that first comment, it should be quite plain that it was pretty tongue-in-cheek. The extra-large caps were a hint, but the killer should have been the protestation of love at no-sight, all because a young woman has written something I quite like. Nobody questioned me on that, however, which kind of reinforces my thoughts about sceptics being just a little too fixated on precision and factuality. One throw-away line gets pinged because it's something sceptics can point to as an unfair, incorrect or inappropriate comment, yet an equally awful throw-away line gets ignored because it's clearly not genuine.
2. Your posts describe a 'war' and tactics of 'getting in their faces' and '******** in their bibles', but is in fact, a passive organization. I am not 'prejudging' I am postjudging quite appropriately, based on what you have provided for us.
That should now, hopefully, be crystal clear.
 
I was talking about John Edward. Where did Hinn come in to this? Yes, Hinn has been exposed as a fraud. Yet there he is, still out there cheating huge crowds of people.

You're right, sorry. This comes down to 'what is skepticism' and 'what can we know'. Edward is borderline in that he's never been caught overtly using the IBM tricks, but an examination of his methods show cold reading techniques. Nobody 'accidentally' cold reads. On the weight of the evidence, I'd say he obviously is aware that this is a gimmick. He also has complex disclaimers and waivers for show participants, which are suspicious.

Less so than Browne, as Browne has a criminal record of deception, which pretty much eliminates benefit of the doubt.
 
It is? I've read it. I found it really helpful. While the author is clearly religious, I don't recall that he even mentions what religion he is. How is it a trojan horse for Mormonism?

The 7 Habits selected are the seven Mormon fundamentals.
 
"Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet,"...
...for our salvation hangs on them.

First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture.

Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men's reasoning.

Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency--the highest quorum in the Church.

Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency--the living prophet and the First Presidency--follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.
Kind of a stretch if these are the fundamentals in question. I certainly have no clue, but your question spurred me to Google into it. This is all I found under that terminology.
 
Here's a summary of them from Covey's book. http://www.aps.edu/aps/wmhs/handbook/effective.html

Evidence, please, that there are "seven Mormon fundamentals" promoted by the LDS church itself, not just Covey, and that they match Covey's.

Fair enough.

He's released the 8th Habit, which puts a crimp in things. He's started to drift into New Age, which is interesting.

It's probably more effective to let Covey say it: (from Divine Center)
I have found in speaking to various non-LDS groups in different cultures that we can teach and testify of many gospel principles if we are careful in selecting words which carry our meaning but come from their experience and frame of mind.

ie: "proselytize with a vocabulary appropriate for the target audience"

I have to confess that most of my research into management fads was broad but thin, and when I went over my notes regarding Covey, it's clear that his critics are Evangelicals, which puts my sources into the 'dubious' category. They've gone especially wonky now that he's clearly moving in a New Age direction.

However, Covey's not making any secret about his motivation for publishing: conversion. He claims, however, that Mormon truths are universal truths, so it's all a public service of sorts.



I appreciate that you got a lot out of the 7 Habits approach, but I'd like to follow up on the above point with all due respect, and indicate that one other thing that Scientology does which I also see in these management fads that are attached at the hip to religion... is that they lay claim to originality for recycling platitudes and pretty basic ideas. As in: "Thank You Captain Obvious".
 
Communication skills, partly dialect and partly deliberate. People often mistake my Antipodean wit or sarcasm as actual opinion.

Whose fault is that?

Anyway:
I just finished listening to Point of Inquiry for September 15th. Ann Druyan, and a recording of Carl Sagan's last speech at CSICOP. It's worth listening to the whole podcast, of course, but I'd recommend skipping ahead to 1h25m into it, to get a general idea about Sagan's advice for how skepticism should interact with the rest of the world.
 
OK, first off, I haven't read through all of this thread. Right now I don't have the patience - maybe when I have more time. That being said, I'm still going to offer my opinion. Although an atheist, I don't have a problem with religion in general, I can see the point that it has in people's lives. However, I have a big, big problem with fanaticism in any form. Fanaticism is completely anti-rational -- its basis is emotional and a complete dismissal of other's points of view. It's a denial of free choice - it's a denial of self-direction - it is dictatorial in form and so is completely at odds with the concept of humans as intelligent, self-directed, individuals.

Although I live in the US, I guess I'm lucky. I live in the Northeast, which as far as I know is not a hotbed of fundamentalism. I don't think we have any super-churches. Here there are many denominations, many churches, with small attendance. Religion plays a role, but it is usually very personal and private (for the most part). We're one of the few states (that for now at least) endorses same-sex marriage. I'm proud of that. I do fear the increasing strength of the religious right in this country, and I fear the intolerance that such a movement produces.

I don't have a problem with people who have a personal belief in god/gods, but I do have a problem when they try to force their beliefs on me. This is my opinion and I don't insist that it be anyone else's - I think this flexibility and tolerance sets me apart from some of the religious fanatics that more and more try to control the future of the US.

Snooziums, you have my sympathy for being in a difficult situation in a difficult part of the country. I read your original post as a cry of frustration and isolation - not as an opening to debate and attack as you have suffered here. Keep following your conscience - keep standing up for what you believe in.
 
Snooziums, you have my sympathy for being in a difficult situation in a difficult part of the country. I read your original post as a cry of frustration and isolation - not as an opening to debate and attack as you have suffered here. Keep following your conscience - keep standing up for what you believe in.

Thank you. Growing up in a Christian school, and attending a Christian church when I was young was a traumatic experience for me. Nearly cost me my life.

Yet, all around, I see the dangers of originated religion, and just now much influence it has over domestic, national, and international affairs. Through studying history, I have seen how many times science was pushed back because it was felt to conflict with "God's laws" by those in power, and sadly, this happens even today.

If there were no religious organizations from the time that the Renaissance started until today, we perhaps might be far, far more advanced in technology and far, far more knowledgeable about the universe we live in and how it works.
 
I appreciate that you got a lot out of the 7 Habits approach, but I'd like to follow up on the above point with all due respect, and indicate that one other thing that Scientology does which I also see in these management fads that are attached at the hip to religion... is that they lay claim to originality for recycling platitudes and pretty basic ideas. As in: "Thank You Captain Obvious".

Actually I've never read 7 Habits that I can recall, so if I did, I apparently never got anything out of it.

However, I did know enough about the LDS church to know there are no well known "seven fundamentals." And even if there were an obscure list somewhere, they wouldn't be Covey's. For example, I'd be shocked if following the Word of Wisdom and obeying the Prophet were left off any top-seven Mormon list.

I can agree more with the point above about "laying claim to originality for recycling platitudes and pretty basic ideas." Instead of seeing a successful conspiracy to use popular culture to spread certain religions, I think in actual fact, the influence is more likely to work the other way around.

Most of the time, the ideas are already out there being promoted for other reasons, like Why Johnny Can't Read being published in the mid 1950s to promote phonics about the same time as the founding of Scientology. Or the temperance movement in the U.S. arising about the same time as the Mormon Word of Wisdom.

Religions tend to pick up the flotsam and jetsam of the culture around them, then regurgitate it as the word of god. It's funny because it shows the distinctly non-inspired origin of the principals god is supposedly laying down for them. And it also shows that popular culture has as much if not more influence on religion as religion has on popular culture.
 

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