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'What about building 7'?

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That's funny. What political motive could you possibly believe me to have regarding this? Please enlighten me... this should be good.
I only say that it has the signs. The exact details of your agenda only you know, but it's very clear that your goal is gaining adepts, or "low hanging fruit" as you call them here in this post you wrote in 911blogger:

People who are either technically aware enough to see through the holes in the official account of 911, or open minded enough to look at the facts in a balanced way have already done so. In terms of garnering support for the 911 truth cause you could call those people, for want of a better phrase "low hanging fruit", easy picking. Where does that leave our movement as far as attracting the support of those who are yet to see or acknowledge 911 for what it was?
We already have a central figure who is determined to scream "inside job" at the audience in the shape of Mr Jones, and in my opinion, although this serves a purpose, there is no need for another screamer.
As some on here will be aware, in the past few months our research group has been pushing the issue of omissions and errors in the WTC7 report and in doing so we have debated many people on line who are opposed to this evidence being addressed at any level. let alone the level that we are pursuing NIST at. What has become crystal clear to me throughout this process is that these people are scared when we stick to the bare facts, and this tactic is one that those who oppose us cannot find a defense for.
To clarify, when I approach a would be debunker and steer clear of claims like "inside job", "US govt complicity", and even "freefall acceleration and thermitic material", but just stick to "they got the report wrong, missed out elements and made errors and should redo their analysis" - there is no defense. The issue is there in black and white and is undeniable. The only response that opposers can resort to is to try and move onto the aforementioned points that I have chosen for now, to steer clear of, and that fact alone indicates where the WTC7 report weak point really is.
Inside job, freefall, thermite etc have woken up all the people that they are going to in terms of mass. I believe it is now time to change the game plan and to use the numbers that these pertinent and relevant issues have helped gain for our cause. And I am convinced that the way to do this is to ask people to take that first step of entertaining the possibility that the WTC7 report is provably false, and allow them to draw their own conclusions rather than ask them to step straight to the finish line of "911 was an inside job". This approach has to date opened up a dialogue with both NIST and the Office of the Inspector General. I dare say that these people would rather not be talking to us, but the fact that we are focusing on the provable errors and not widening out the issue doe not afford them that option to dismiss and ignore us.
Exactly the same can be said of Abby's audience. There is nothing to be gained from Abby playing to the crowd and appealing to people like ourselves who are already convinced by declaring that "911 was an inside job". Far better for her to simply ask the questions that she has in a calm and rational way and in doing so making the truth of 911 an approachable topic rather than a polarising issue. If this is her intent then I applaud it. We should maybe consider that this could be a scaling back of approach rather than an abandonment of former belief on Abby's part, and allow her to play the game her way without being overly critical.
As an interesting aside, it is also my opinion that if RT had been opposed to what Abby said going out on the airwaves, we would not be discussing the topic now, because it would not have aired. RT are just not that stupid. I do not pretend to know what kind of game RT, or indeed Abby is playing here, but when I consider the attention that both have brought to this issue in the past, I can do little else but applaud that, and hope.

http://911blogger.com/news/2014-03-07/being-smeared-911-truther-msm#comment-260973

And now that that basis that you believed was rock solid is shredded into pieces, you're squirming and struggling to find a shadow of a doubt, a point in which to base new accusations in order to enable you to continue with the "game plan".

That's not what people who really care about truth do.

That's what people with an agenda do.

What agenda exactly? That you know. I don't.
 
And now that that basis that you believed was rock solid is shredded into pieces, you're squirming and struggling to find a shadow of a doubt, a point in which to base new accusations in order to enable you to continue with the "game plan".

That's not what people who really care about truth do.

That's what people with an agenda do.

What agenda exactly? That you know. I don't.

You're very good at claiming victory. From someone who totally misunderstood the function of a basic ANSYS element a couple of days ago, you now expect people to believe that you can somehow assume an in depth understanding of this analysis a couple of short days later????

The game plan here is to keep you to the technical analysis, and not allow you to respond to the technical with the political. You did ok for a while, then you ran out of road.

Just out of interest, what is my motivation again? You know, the political one you talked about in response to the technical question.
 
[FONT=&quot]1) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]NIST analyzes the northeast corner floor system to evaluate its response to elevated temperatures and to confirm which failure modes need to be accounted for in the 16-story and 47 stories models.[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] “A finite element analysis of the northeast corner floor system was conducted to evaluate its response to elevated temperatures and to confirm which failure modes needed to be accounted for in the 16-story ANSYS model. ….. This analysis demonstrated possible failure mechanisms that were used to develop the leading collapse hypothesis further. The failure modes in this model were incorporated into the 16 story ANSYS and 47 story LS-DYNA analyses.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Section 8.8 pp.349,353)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]2) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]NIST determines C79-44 failed by lateral-torsional buckling in the one story and 16 story models.[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]Here is a paraphrased version of the most detailed explanation of how NIST described the failure of girder C79-44 for a one floor model in their report (NCSTAR 1-9, section 8.8, their pp. 349-354):
The expanding beams pushed the C79-44 girder to the west. The expanding girder jammed at C79 and C44. The beams continued to expand and were axially compressed by the resisting girder, buckling the beams. The sagging beams rotated the heated, buckled girder to the east. (See Figures 8-26, 8-27). At a certain rotated critical angle of the top flange, the girder failed to carry its load and fell. (Section 11.2.9, pp.487-488)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“Axial compression then increased in the floor beams, and at a beam temperature of 436 °C, the northmost beam began to buckle laterally. Buckling of other floor beams followed as shown in Figure 8–27 (a), leading to collapse of the floor system, and rocking of the girder off its seat at Column 79 as shown in Figure 8–27 (b)”[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (p. 353) See Figures 8-27(a,b).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“If a beam or girder twisted half of its flange width laterally, it would not be able to support its gravity loads and would be removed from the analysis. “ [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In this girder case half of the W30x133 flange width = 5.25”[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
It should also be noted that whereas the attention has been focused on the seat at C79, this unrestrained girder condition at this seat was of an area of a few square inches whereas the twisting forces on the girder occurred over the entire ~44 foot girder, failing it as NIST noted in their lateral- torsional buckling analysis and figures.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]3) NIST uses the one floor model findings in the 16 floor model section 11.4.1 and determines C79-44 failed by buckling.[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot] “Thermal Effects on Floor Beams and Girders[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The girder between Columns 26 and 81 buckled and walked off the bearing seat between 3.25 h and 3.5 h. In a similar fashion, the girders between Columns 79 and 80 and Columns 80 and 81 buckled and the girder between Columns 44 and 79 buckled and walked off the bearing seat between 3.7 h and 4.0 h. Girder buckling was due to the combined effects of (1) gravity loads from the floor beams, (2) lateral westward displacement due to the thermal expansion in the east floor beams, and (3) increased axial loads due to thermal expansion in the girder. “(p.527)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In light of the buckled girder failure, how then is the following consistent?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot] “Thermal Effects on Connections for Floor Beams and Girders[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Walk off occurred when beams that framed into the girders from one side thermally expanded and the resulting compressive forces in the beams pushed laterally on the girder from one side, sheared the bolts at the seated connection, and then continued to push the girder laterally until it walked off the bearing seat. A girder was considered to have lost vertical support when its web was no longer supported by the bearing seat. The bearing seat at Column 79 was 11 in. wide. Thus, when the girder end at Column 79 had been pushed laterally at least 5.5 in., it was no longer supported by the bearing seat.“[/FONT][FONT=&quot](p.527)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]The failure of the girder by buckling is clear. Is this second explanation consistent with the buckling mode?[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]a) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The beams continued to push laterally in both explanations.[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]b) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The girder lost vertical support when the web was no longer supported by the bearing seat in both explanations.[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]c) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The girder end at Column 79 had been pushed laterally at least 5.5” (half the buckling flange failure lateral distance from vertical was 5.25”) in both explanations.[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]d) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]The girder was no longer supported by the bearing seat in both explanations.[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot]5) [/FONT][FONT=&quot]NIST is right, fire not explosives caused the collapse of WTC7[/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot][/FONT]​
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][qimg]http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/8979/figure827.jpg[/qimg]​

Yay. Show some models where NIST got the crucial connection totally wrong... That'll help.
 
You're struggling.
I thought you might nitpick about force balance.
So how would you go about locating such an unbalanced force?

Apparently you don't understand.

The algorithm has an internal condition it is trying to match, and the algorithm continues to go through iterations until it reaches that condition. In the case of ANSYS that you quotes, that condition is satisfied when (External Force) - (Internal Force) = 0. In another algorithm, the condition might be momentum does not change between iterations (is conserved), or energy does not change, or maybe it's a Monte Carlo and the purpose is to forecast a failure probability and some other residual is defined.

Why this is important, is that as the algorithm runs, the residual or error may not converge toward zero. This may be due to the physical interactions involved, such as their nonlinearity, or a high sensitivity to initial conditions (chaotic system). When they find that leaving in certain components or having too fine a mesh of points fails to get the residual to converge toward 0 on successive iterations, they say it fails to converge to a solution.
 
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Apparently you don't understand.

The algorithm has an internal condition it is trying to match, and the algorithm continues to go through iterations until it reaches that condition. In the case of ANSYS that you quotes, that condition is satisfied when (External Force) - (Internal Force) = 0. In another algorithm, the condition might be momentum does not change between iterations (is conserved), or energy does not change, or maybe it's a Monte Carlo and the purpose is to forecast a failure probability.

Why this is important, is that as the algorithm runs, the residual or error may not converge toward zero. This may be due to the physical interactions involved, due to nonlinearity or a high sensitivity to initial conditions (chaotic system). When they find that leaving in certain components or having to fine a mesh of points fails to get the residual to converge toward 0 on successive iterations, they say it fails to converge to a solution.

Why did you not just say what it actually is - Newton Raphson.
Would have saved you a lot of typing.

ETA oh, i know why. ;)
 
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You're very good at claiming victory. From someone who totally misunderstood the function of a basic ANSYS element a couple of days ago, you now expect people to believe that you can somehow assume an in depth understanding of this analysis a couple of short days later????
??? Who is feeding you this BS? Are you posting BS from someone, or is this original BS?

The game plan here is to keep you to the technical analysis, and not allow you to respond to the technical with the political. You did ok for a while, then you ran out of road.
Where is your theories' technical analysis? All you have is a new approach to avoid explaining your CD theory, which has no evidence.

Just out of interest, what is my motivation again? You know, the political one you talked about in response to the technical question.
Why can't you explain your motivation for supporting lies of explosive, thermite and CD?

Right, you don't have a theory, you have a "new approach".
gerrycan said:
... when I approach a would be debunker and steer clear of claims like "inside job", "US govt complicity", and even "freefall acceleration and thermitic material", but just stick to "they got the report wrong, missed out elements and made errors and should redo their analysis" - there is no defense. The issue is there in black and white and is undeniable. ...
Has this fooled anyone?

Why can't 911 truth experts explain why no steel was damage by thermite or explosives. Too busy using the "new approach" BS.

So far there is great evidence for failing at engineering, or engineering by proxy.
 
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Apparently you don't understand.

The algorithm has an internal condition it is trying to match, and the algorithm continues to go through iterations until it reaches that condition. In the case of ANSYS that you quotes, that condition is satisfied when (External Force) - (Internal Force) = 0.

No it isn't. That's just so wrong. The condition is satisfied when the residual is less than the criterion. I even posted that earlier, and you clearly didn't comprehend it at all.

In another algorithm, the condition might be momentum does not change between iterations (is conserved), or energy does not change, or maybe it's a Monte Carlo and the purpose is to forecast a failure probability and some other residual is defined.
Yes I agree. In another algorithm for another type of model measuring something else the condition might be something different. And in another life your post may be relevant to the model we are discussing.

Why this is important, is that as the algorithm runs, the residual or error may not converge toward zero. This may be due to the physical interactions involved, such as their nonlinearity, or a high sensitivity to initial conditions (chaotic system). When they find that leaving in certain components or having too fine a mesh of points fails to get the residual to converge toward 0 on successive iterations, they say it fails to converge to a solution.
Wouldn't they first try graduating the increment of the load? I presume you would be talking about the first iteration here.
 
Can you proclaim a victory? Your argument is stuck on internet forums. It this a victory?

Whatever it is, it's not a defeat.
Trying woefully to defend an inaccurate analysis for which there is no input data would be a defeat. How does it feel?
 
No it isn't. That's just so wrong. The condition is satisfied when the residual is less than the criterion. I even posted that earlier, and you clearly didn't comprehend it at all. ...
Did you miss all of your engineering classes, or just the ones on models. I din't think you got a handle on any engineering stink. What engineering school taught you to attack other peoples work instead of presenting your work supported with evidence? Was it Ga Tech, or GoogleU.

You do have a theory for WTC 7 failure. You believe "free-fall is the smoking gun that WTC 7 was a demolition". You are not using engineering, you are using political rhetoric based on conspiracy theory nonsense.

Your theory, uses the engineering super duper circular theory of support; support by your theory. The failed attempt to refute NIST probable cause, is not support for your CD theory. Like a double fail, and worse, even if you could refute NIST, it was still fire, your theory of CD fails. Illogical technique, only works with your fellow BS artists in 911 truth, where big talk and opinions are your evidence.

When will you present some of that engineering you learned at engineering school. Do you think your work on 911 truth lies helped to inspire your peers the Boston bombers to believe 911 truth lies, and help them hate the USA just a little more. Keep up the good work, your BS and lies do fool a fringe few who are predisposed to hate and believe lies about the USA.
 
The question was raised " how do we know that the east displacement of col79, by the expanding girder between 79 and 76, occurred at the right time to contribute to girder walk off ?"

I have to ask when the wrong time would be? If col 79 moved before girder A2002 was pushed then that girder had to be pushed a lesser distance in order to have its web go beyond the col seat.
With girder connections at 76 and 79 failed, those two columns aren't going to re-straighten.

The only wrong time for this displacement to take place , wrt girder walk off, would be after girder walk off.
At least in the humble view of this non-engineer.

Correct! Thank you for your humble and sharp observation. Chapter 11 of NIST´s report on Building 7 only says that this displacement of column 79 happened in the 3.7 to 4 hour slot of the simulation, and chapter 11 says elsewhere that the 44-79 girder walked off the seat during this same general time slot.

This has given the impression that the displacement of the column could have aided the walk off event, but NIST does not actually say that, anywhere. And more specifically, when you read the summary of the walk off event in chapter 11, you will see that NIST does not specify this displacement of the column as a factor in the walk off event.

The most obvious explanation is that the 44-79 girder walks off the seat before the column is displaced. Gerrycan seems to have another explanation for why NIST did not specify this as a factor in the walk off scenario. I don´t know which one is correct, but that is not really the main issue. All we have to know is that this column displacement was not a factor in the walk off according to NIST.
 
Limp, unimpressive reply.

It was more than was warranted.

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Does this look like the column 79 girder connection to you, or does it look more like column 81 ?
 

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The most obvious explanation is that the 44-79 girder walks off the seat before the column is displaced. Gerrycan seems to have another explanation for why NIST did not specify this as a factor in the walk off scenario. I don´t know which one is correct, but that is not really the main issue. All we have to know is that this column displacement was not a factor in the walk off according to NIST.
But what is your claim? A fantasy CD. How will you present evidence for what is a fantasy? Who cares what NIST did, why can't you prove CD.

It is illogical and anti-intellectual to attack NIST, when you can't support your claims of CD. It is stupid to attack NIST, knowing your CD fantasy was stillborn on 911.

What engineering school teaches you guys to attack the other theory, instead of proving your own theory. What a load of BS, attacking a probable cause, unable to support your CD theory. What engineering school did you get this failed approach from?
 
It was more than was warranted.

attachment.php


Does this look like the column 79 girder connection to you, or does it look more like column 81 ?
It looks like C79-44 failed in lateral-torsional buckling and that's why fire and not explosives collapsed WTC7
 
Whatever it is, it's not a defeat.
Trying woefully to defend an inaccurate analysis for which there is no input data would be a defeat. How does it feel?
I don't know. I'm not aware of this problem. The NIST has supplied all the data needed to support their conclusions.

The "they don't expose their data" is a red herring. I've got to wonder, Why do you think your arguments have gained no traction with relevant professionals? You can't deny you have no audience in the relevant fields.
 
As for (1), I merely pointed it out as a possibility that was not accounted for by gerrycan. A more elaborate version of your argument might reasonably account for it.

As for (2), I think it's not under dispute that NIST *does* report that the simulation showed walk-off. While they don't mention it explicitly as a factor, the timeframe for column displacement matches (between 3.5 and 4.0 hours for Case B). They mention the walk-off happened between 3.7 and 4.0 hours, so while the timeframes for column displacement and walk-off overlap, it's a bit more likely that the column displacement preceded the walk-off.

.

Pgimeno, as for 1) it is NOT a possibility, and gerrycan has not wasted time accounting for this non-sense because this is not NIST´s theory in any shape or form. And what´s more it is not possible according to NIST´s data, which shows the beam closes to column 79 (and all but one beam) still connected to the girder, which means this leverage story is a total fantasy conjured up on this forum.

And as for 2) - as you have correctly noted - NIST does not say this displacement of the column was a factor in the walk off scenario. It is not likely that this displacement happened before the walk off, because NIST does not include it as a factor in the walk off. Had it occurred before the walk off, NIST would obviously have specified it as one of the factors leading to walk off.

Some people here owe gerrycan an apology.
 
It was more than was warranted.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=32620&stc=1&d=1425431431[/qimg]

Does this look like the column 79 girder connection to you, or does it look more like column 81 ?


Looks like 79. The framing is totally different on 81.
 
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