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'What about building 7'?

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Where can I find the best pictures of the damaged side of world trade 7?
Just wondering about damage to the upper part of the damaged side near the roof line.
 
So it wasn't "Hush a Boom" explosives, it was "Ignore a Boom" microphones :rolleyes:
Don't forget the thousands of people with welder's burn and temporary blindness after tons of thermite flashed off while they were staring at the World Trade Center.
 
"While the recorded video was generally good, most of the audio recordings from around the World Trade Center on 9/11, were poor, too directional, too local, or too distorted.

While the viewers heard nothing, reporters at the scene, were observed to dramatically turn and react to loud explosive sounds that were never recorded by the microphones they had been speaking into moments earlier.

Many eyewitnesses reported hearing explosions where microphones did not.

The NIST realized that an engineered implosion explained what happened to 7WTC, but they dismissed this hypothesis because they assumed there would be high, easily recorded sound levels.

Of course the NIST looked at the recordings of other building demolitions. Those recorded events that were planned and publicized in advance and not staged in secrecy. Buildings openly prepped, with windows pre-broken and floors cleared of furnishings, allowing for excellent sound echo and projection (ever notice how quiet it is inside an office tower behind those heavy sealed windows?)

In defiance of the NIST's thinking, we have the glaring fact that for the most part, the biggest noises of the day, were not even recorded well, for it is not easy to obtain clean, broad, audio recordings outside of a sound stage unless you have engineered for it.

We know with certainty that cameras recorded the planes impacting both the WTC Twin Towers, the subsequent fireball explosions, the falling debris, the collapses of the Twin Towers, and finally the collapse of 7WTC at 5:20 pm on 9/11.

With all of those recordings, what was most memorable, was the video, and what was the least memorable, or non-existent, was the sound.

And we are not talking traffic noise, we are talking about the gigantic sound signatures of two 110 storey and one 47 storey steel-structured office towers collapsing at high speed."
,,,and yet in those well set up videos of true demolitions what's missing so many times?

The sound of the actual collapse. What you do hear is the explosions.

Yes, what's your point? That the videos are poor?

My first point is that you are so intent on disagreement that you fail to carefully consider what it is you are disagreeing with.

NONE of the 7WTC collapse videos showed the lower floors, where even the NIST agrees the main action occurred.

The collapse was initiated at the building core, and unlike all the loud well advertised building demolitions you like to tout, the implosion was triggered in a largely sealed, sound suppressing environment.

While I disagree with their conclusions, the NIST engineers accepted a hypothesis that supports the idea that only a single column had to be felled in order to initiate the implosive collapse which was observed.

Without actually testing to actually determine what sound levels could be generated from the core of a similar test enclosure, the NIST ran with the self-serving assumption that the generated levels would be comparable to run-of-the-mill demolitions.

While I know you mock this legitimate research, the finding of nano-thermite throughout the 9/11 WTC dust, provided evidence that structural steel was under attack by more than conventional demolition explosives.

The NIST never evaluated that peer-reviewed research, just as they chose to ignore eye-witness testimony regarding explosions when it contradicted their chosen hypothesis.


Actually, they also found no evidence of any kind to support an engineered implosion. Did you forget this?
Strange that you would say that since the NIST hypothesis describes 7WTC effectively imploding as the result of cascading core column failures.

The difference is, to avoid the more logical, but highly controversial, explanation associated with an "engineered failure", the NIST opted for an "Emperor's New Clothes" argument.

In spite of the naked falsity of their hypothesis, the NIST claimed that simple roaming office cubicle fires lead to the failure of the those massive core columns and the high speed collapse of the 47-storey 7WTC.

And because those who could and should have disagreed, feared to effectively challenge the government and have their patriotism questioned, the NIST got away with it.

So it wasn't "Hush a Boom" explosives, it was "Ignore a Boom" microphones
You probably have little idea about what is involved in sound recording.

Most major Hollywood action films rely on audio that was not part of the video you see.

Your "ignore a boom" is more correct than you realize.

Yes, in many of those building demolitions, you see and then hear the sharp cracks of mostly perimeter explosives.

High-pitched sounds reverberating from enclosures cleared of sound dampening furnishings, wall coverings, doors, curtains, and windows.

It is a different story when those explosions are engineered to be as muffled as possible and occurring largely out of view, and shielded by enclosures, a labyrinth of office cubicles, heavily sealed perimeter windows, and an outside cacophony of 9/11 street noise.

Those "ignore a boom" microphones failed to realistically record the proper intensity of what we know were the loud low-pitched sounds of "the planes impacting both the WTC Twin Towers, the subsequent fireball explosions, the falling debris, the collapses of the Twin Towers, and finally the collapse of 7WTC at 5:20 pm on 9/11".

The NIST's talk of how many decibels of sound should have been generated, does not equate to the sound levels that would be expected to be recorded.

As shown on 9/11, on more than one occasion, a reporter is seen to stop an interview, turn and react to the explosive sound of a collapsing World Trade Center Tower.

Yet, the microphone in their hand only heard the nearby voices.

Funny thing is, knowing explosives sound levels, distances, intervening materials, and the characteristics of recording devices, calculations can be made and experiments performed to try to establish support for MM's reasoning for the lack of sound.

MM does not perform any of this work, he just makes a statement of belief and expects his audience to accept it.
I do not need to perform that work.

After working in broadcast TV for over 35 years, I am well aware of the characteristics and nature of sound.

For that reason, I would have expected the NIST to support their lame assertions by doing more than consulting in a table of sound generation levels.
 
After working in broadcast TV for over 35 years, I am well aware of the characteristics and nature of sound.

For that reason, I would have expected the NIST to support their lame assertions by doing more than consulting in a table of sound generation levels.
So we are supposed to bow to your professional expertise on sound? How many decibels are produced by a demolition explosive event? How much would the intervening materials dampen the sound, in decibels? What would be the effect of other building fronts reflecting the sound? Exactly what is the sound spectrum of the explosives, and what is the matching characteristic on the recording devices for sound cutoff, and for saturation? You are desperately hand-waving here, and it is patently obvious.
 
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MM does not perform any of this work, he just makes a statement of belief and expects his audience to accept it.
I do not need to perform that work.

After working in broadcast TV for over 35 years, I am well aware of the characteristics and nature of sound.

For that reason, I would have expected the NIST to support their lame assertions by doing more than consulting in a table of sound generation levels.
So we are supposed to bow to your professional expertise on sound?

How many decibels are produced by a demolition explosive event?

How much would the intervening materials dampen the sound, in decibels?

What would be the effect of other building fronts reflecting the sound?

Exactly what is the sound spectrum of the explosives, and what is the matching characteristic on the recording devices for sound cutoff, and for saturation?

All, or mostly all, good questions.

Questions which I would expect an engineering report to properly address before dismissing the issue.
 
So we are supposed to bow to your professional expertise on sound? How many decibels are produced by a demolition explosive event? How much would the intervening materials dampen the sound, in decibels? What would be the effect of other building fronts reflecting the sound? Exactly what is the sound spectrum of the explosives, and what is the matching characteristic on the recording devices for sound cutoff, and for saturation? You are desperately hand-waving here, and it is patently obvious.

You almost have to admire someone who doggedly clings to his religious beliefs of CD. :D
 



All, or mostly all, good questions.

Questions which I would expect an engineering report to properly address before dismissing the issue.

Their level of detail was inadequate for you? Prove your case. You are the one claiming CD. Now you want your personal opinion taken over that of a study group at the U.S. National Institute of Standards and Technology. You've got some homework to do.
 

The collapse was initiated at the building core, and unlike all the loud well advertised building demolitions you like to tout, the implosion was triggered in a largely sealed, sound suppressing environment.

Um, you're overlooking yet another problem with your theory. Glass windows certainly could not have provided a "largely sealed, sound suppressing environment" for the amount of explosives required to take out that many large columns. You do realize, don't you, that if it were a controlled demolition, then it would have been much larger than any ever attempted?
 
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Um, you're overlooking yet another problem with your theory. Glass windows certainly could not have provided a "largely sealed, sound suppressing environment" for the amount of explosives required to take out that many large columns.

Nor would the glass windows have survived. Nor does the shooting of interior columns on any other demolition seem to be muffled as is claimed.
 
My first point is that you are so intent on disagreement that you fail to carefully consider what it is you are disagreeing with.

NONE of the 7WTC collapse videos showed the lower floors, where even the NIST agrees the main action occurred.

The collapse was initiated at the building core, and unlike all the loud well advertised building demolitions you like to tout, the implosion was triggered in a largely sealed, sound suppressing environment.

While I disagree with their conclusions, the NIST engineers accepted a hypothesis that supports the idea that only a single column had to be felled in order to initiate the implosive collapse which was observed.

Without actually testing to actually determine what sound levels could be generated from the core of a similar test enclosure, the NIST ran with the self-serving assumption that the generated levels would be comparable to run-of-the-mill demolitions.

While I know you mock this legitimate research, the finding of nano-thermite throughout the 9/11 WTC dust, provided evidence that structural steel was under attack by more than conventional demolition explosives.

The NIST never evaluated that peer-reviewed research, just as they chose to ignore eye-witness testimony regarding explosions when it contradicted their chosen hypothesis.



Strange that you would say that since the NIST hypothesis describes 7WTC effectively imploding as the result of cascading core column failures.

The difference is, to avoid the more logical, but highly controversial, explanation associated with an "engineered failure", the NIST opted for an "Emperor's New Clothes" argument.

In spite of the naked falsity of their hypothesis, the NIST claimed that simple roaming office cubicle fires lead to the failure of the those massive core columns and the high speed collapse of the 47-storey 7WTC.

And because those who could and should have disagreed, feared to effectively challenge the government and have their patriotism questioned, the NIST got away with it.


You probably have little idea about what is involved in sound recording.

Most major Hollywood action films rely on audio that was not part of the video you see.

Your "ignore a boom" is more correct than you realize.

Yes, in many of those building demolitions, you see and then hear the sharp cracks of mostly perimeter explosives.

High-pitched sounds reverberating from enclosures cleared of sound dampening furnishings, wall coverings, doors, curtains, and windows.

It is a different story when those explosions are engineered to be as muffled as possible and occurring largely out of view, and shielded by enclosures, a labyrinth of office cubicles, heavily sealed perimeter windows, and an outside cacophony of 9/11 street noise.

Those "ignore a boom" microphones failed to realistically record the proper intensity of what we know were the loud low-pitched sounds of "the planes impacting both the WTC Twin Towers, the subsequent fireball explosions, the falling debris, the collapses of the Twin Towers, and finally the collapse of 7WTC at 5:20 pm on 9/11".

The NIST's talk of how many decibels of sound should have been generated, does not equate to the sound levels that would be expected to be recorded.

As shown on 9/11, on more than one occasion, a reporter is seen to stop an interview, turn and react to the explosive sound of a collapsing World Trade Center Tower.

Yet, the microphone in their hand only heard the nearby voices.


I do not need to perform that work.

After working in broadcast TV for over 35 years, I am well aware of the characteristics and nature of sound.

For that reason, I would have expected the NIST to support their lame assertions by doing more than consulting in a table of sound generation levels.

^^

lol
 
Um, you're overlooking yet another problem with your theory. Glass windows certainly could not have provided a "largely sealed, sound suppressing environment" for the amount of explosives required to take out that many large columns. You do realize, don't you, that if it were a controlled demolition, then it would have been much larger than any ever attempted?

Neither could the gaping hole in the side of the building.
 
The required distance of 6.25" does not account for the increased load distribution footprint that the stiffeners would bring to the column.
NIST would need to reconcile the 6.25" walk distance with their previous statement that above 600C the beams would begin to sag and lose their ability to push.
They would also need to account for the expansion of the girder itself and the fact that the girder would become trapped within the inside edge of the column side plate.
NIST will never do this, as it invalidates their supposed initiating event.

ETA they would also have to include the 3 beam stubs that they omitted in their analysis.
Well, I think that that settles the question of whether NIST needed to consider the stiffeners when estimating the walk-off distance: the girder would fail anyway once its CoG was off the seat, regardless of the stiffeners. NIST probably knew that and didn't need to consider the stiffeners. Omitting them was a reasonable simplification of the simulation.

The column (and thus the seat) displacing to the east settles the question of whether the beams expanded by the length of the walk-off: they didn't need to, because the displacement of the seat added to the total distance for walk-off. And that distance was large enough for breaking connections in three other floors.

The expansion of the beams before the girder settles the question of why the girder wasn't trapped between the plates.

So far nothing changes in NIST's analysis even when all these factors are considered.

So, the only issue remaining from gerrycan's list is the beam stubs. What about them, gerry?
Gerrycan? Hello?

What about the beam stubs?
 
That's what I was getting at, yes. Nor would windows in nearby buildings.

Agreed. The argument seems to be that NIST rejected the controlled-demolition theory prematurely, without investigating such things as whether the sound of explosive charges should be audible via the various microphones. I think that gives the hypothesis far too much credit.
 
In further support of the fact that "(Frankel 1985)" was a bibliographic reference and not a drawing number, I have found this 911blogger post: http://911blogger.com/news/2013-11-06/nist-replies-stiffeners-inquiry where NIST replies to a couple questions by (Jonathan?) Cole. (Side note: the other question replies to why the stiffener plates weren't considered, if anyone's interested).

A snippet:
A) In NCSTAR 1-9, which design drawing was used to create:

Figure 8-21?.................1091, 9114Figure 8-23?.................1091, 3004, 9114
Figure 8-26?.................1091, 3004, 9114
Figure 8-27?.................E12-13
Figure 11-16?...............E12-13, E120
Figure 11-19?...............None
Figure 12-24?..............1091, 9114
Figure 12-25?..............1091, 9114, E12-13


Note the highlighted, as it's one of the pictures in my "collage". A caption subtitle says "Based on fabrication shop drawings (Frankel 1985)" exactly as in figure 11-15. The caption itself says, "Figure 8-21. Seated connection at Column 79".

So, gerrycan, with this new information I think I am now able to reply to your question, as the diagram in figure 8-21 is essentially equivalent to that in figure 11-15 which is the one you asked about.

Also, what drawing does it say it is based on? I am pretty sure the drawing is called out wrongly there too.
The (likely) answer is drawings 1091 and 9114. I say likely because apparently Cole didn't ask about figure 11-15 specifically. Shame, but at least Cole did realize that the 1985 in the captions did not mean a drawing number, it meant a bibliographic reference.
 
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