Perhaps the thermite was concealed within Mac Donald's paper cups. It would explain why they always ask you if you want to go large.
We need a new investigation !
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Perhaps the thermite was concealed within Mac Donald's paper cups. It would explain why they always ask you if you want to go large.
We need a new investigation !
Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
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That's ok, as long as you keep in mind that "explosion" is merely an interpretation of what he heard, saw, felt and smelled. Hess probably didn't have any prior personal experience with different kinds of "explosions" similar in extent and severy as what he experienced there; and at the time he was interpreting from a limited perception of the context it all happened in.
Yes.
Why do you say "extremely"? What do you compare this to, and what metrics did you employ? Or is this hyperbole?
Do you believe that Jennings actually, literally "fell through" a landing, and actually, literally, was "left hanging from a railing pole"? Or is this hyperbole?
Perhaps this scenario is implausible.
The alternative - an explosive device planted in the area as part of a plan to blow up the WTC7, that went of alone without actually yet causing a collapse, but damaging heavily a non-structural part of the building also seems implausible - what would cause that device to go off so out of synch with everything else (you deny that this happend during a TT collapse, right), and why would the device be planted such that only some non-structural concrete walls and landings took damage? And why were Jennings and Hess not injured by that explosion?
I think it is more plausible to assume that the accounts of Hess and Jennings about what blocked their descent were more dramatic than what actually happened.
Yes. Jennings reported that coffee was "smoking" when he got to the OEM. The nano-thermite was planted in the coffee cups. Case solved.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
There's nothing to ignore. They got to the OEM well after the evacuation at 9:45. They were in the OEM when the South Tower collapsed. They experienced the North Tower collapse in the stairway. Mr Jennings did not see the towers standing after he experienced the "explosion" in the stairway.
I know you need that point to be correct but, no one elses accounts allow it.
You continue to try to hammer that square peg through the solid board. You have to, every part of your argument hinges on that one bit.
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jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
A point that has been lost on a great many truthers oh these 13 long years.
Hyperbole.
OTOH, I believe there were people who used those stairways to exit the building after the collapse of WTC 1, including fire fighters who went through WTC7 later. Hard to explain how they could do so if a landing was missing.
I believe he actually believes this. I think "hanging onto a railing pole" would be more accurate, as the building shook from the impact of heavy WTC1 debris.
Its also a strawman.
Yes.
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
Hmmm, let's examine the converse. If an explosion that destroyed a landing they were standing on came from above............
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
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I always thought it was an energy transfer event though a steel structure.
They can sound like ground muffled
Events but would not have the hypersonic
Wave of an air explosion.
But of course you.guy know more about this than
Me.
They can sound like ground muffled
Events but would not have the hypersonic
Wave of an air explosion.
But of course you.guy know more about this than
Me.
Spektator
Is that right?
The best part of blowing up is thermite in your cup.
Crazy Chainsaw
Philosopher
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Thats it a hydrogen fuel air blast from
A cup of Joe.
As my brother said nothing like hot coffee splashing
Up your nose in the morning.
Grizzly Bear
このマスクに&#
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Keeping the discussion focused on convolution of Jenning's testimony distracts people from pointing out that there is no physical case for controlled demolition.
Trying to piece together the time line of events is all fine, and has a place for discussion... but if the point is proving controlled demolition took place the physical and documentary evidence categorically rules it out. Jennings testimony doesn't demonstrate a CD because the other evidence fails to corroborate it, I would complain that MM is purposely not addressing it, but this isn't just "him", and this has been going on for a decade... I can't bring myself to be surprised by this crap.
Trying to piece together the time line of events is all fine, and has a place for discussion... but if the point is proving controlled demolition took place the physical and documentary evidence categorically rules it out. Jennings testimony doesn't demonstrate a CD because the other evidence fails to corroborate it, I would complain that MM is purposely not addressing it, but this isn't just "him", and this has been going on for a decade... I can't bring myself to be surprised by this crap.
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JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
I'm not surprised either. Debating conspiracy theorists is always an exercise in wallowing in some irrelevant detail so that you never look at a preponderance or consilience of evidence in the way a real investigation does.
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
Which brings us around to the off asked, never addressed question of a description of the events of Sept 11/01 that those who do not subscribe to the commonly accepted history do believe occurred.
This post is the last post in my series of posts on the experience of shaking and noise: #2744, #2756; #2758.
In the posts I have attempted to take a more objective approach to what Jennings and Hess might have heard and felt, while they were inside their secluded position on the 23rd floor, than what we can get from just reading other witness accounts. Accounts that easily can mislead us to think that the effects were more pronounced than they were. And I concluded that it seemed plausible that they may not have noticed the shaking and the noise from the collapse of WTC 2.
But this does not in any way rule out that did not notice it either. If we look at the interviews given by Jennings and Hess, there is noting in the interviews ruling out that they did not hear and feel the collapse of WTC 2 while they were on the 23rd floor, even though they did not mention any noise or vibrations specifically.
This is what Jennings said about what he could hear from the outside in the interview done by Dylan Avery and Jason Bermas in 2007:
For some reason Jennings thinks that Flight 175 hit WTC 2 while he was inside on the 23d floor, but he does not give a clear answer to why he thinks so. And what does he mean with; "I couldn't tell you because I was inside and I was like closed off from everything”. Did he mean that he did not hear anything? Or did he mean that he could not tell what it was he heard, because he could not see what was going on the outside?
They experienced at least one effect from the collapse of WTC 2; that being the power failure described by Hess in his short interview after being rescued the same day:
The part about power failure is repeated in the 2005 summary NIST made of the interviews they did with Jennings and Hess in 2004:
It should be noted that noise and shaking is not specifically mentioned by NIST in relation to their experience, neither on the 23rd floor nor in relation to what happened down on the 6th floor. One could say that it is implicit in the word “collapsed”. Since they could not see what was going on outside, NIST quiet simply used the power failure as the strongest indication that they were on the 23rd floor when WTC 2 collapsed.
If I am going to sum this up, I would say that it would be disingenuous to pretend that the experience of Hess and Jennings on the 23rd floor would be equal to their experience on the 6th floor. Or for that matter the experience of Mike Catalano down on the 3rd floor in the lobby area, during the collapse of WTC 2. As it has been explained repeatedly, there was a magnitude of difference between how WTC 7 experienced the collapse of WTC 2 and then WTC 1.
Likewise during the collapse of WTC 2 Mike Catalano and his coworkers suffered a long drawn of ordeal down on the 3rd floor, even though the collapse itself was over in 10-15 seconds. After the noise and vibrations from the collapse itself were over, the lower floors of WTC 7 was hit by the dust cloud pushed out from the collapsed WTC 2. First they heard light debris carried by the cloud hitting and breaking window panes in the lobby area, next they were engulfed in chocking dust and darkness, while attempting to escape the building. And they had a view to collapse, so they knew something really bad was going on, and therefore feared for their lives.
Hess and Jennings were high above this mess not suffering from any effects of the dust cloud. Nor could they see what was going on outside. They may or may not have noticed the vibrations, something that is not in any way a given in an earthquake of equal magnitude to the collapse to WTC 2. They did register the lights flickering due to the power failure. Any noise they heard would at the least be more subdued than what Catalano experienced, because they had more walls between themselves and the exterior, while Catalano only had the lobby windows to shield him from the noise.
All in all, the reaction of Jennings and Hess at this stage could have been more on the level of "what was that"; not being to alarmed by what they may have heard and felt. At the time they may very well have attributed the effects to a technical mishap somewhere inside the building, causing the power failure. Nor were there any smoke and dust to cause them any alarm either.
And for why it took Jennings and Hess as long as 30 minutes to get down to the 6th floor, there is a plausible explanation for that to. After coming from the lobby the second time, they got into the EOC and found it empty. To find out why, they return to the elevator to go down again to the lobby to find out what is going on. As they return to the elevator WTC 2 collapses causing a power failure halting the elevators. Not feeling in any immediate danger and in the hope avoiding walking down 23 floors, Jennings and Hess returns to the EOC, where Jennings spends time making several telephone calls to find out what is going on. After some time he receives the call from one of his higher-ups who, is shocked(likely knowing that WTC 2 has collapsed) to find out that Jennings still is inside WTC 7, telling him to get out without telling them why. So when they finally leave for the stairwell the clock could very well be closer to the collapse of WTC 1, than it was to the collapse of WTC 2.
As expected conspiracy theorists like MM, does not want to contemplate for a second that the level of noise and shaking inside WTC 7 during the collapse of WTC 2, might not have been as pronounced as we intuitively would think. Nor that there are reasonable explanations for why it took Jennings and Hess nearly 30 minutes to get down to 6th floor. And especially, MM attempts to hand wave away the fact that Hess in an interview, shortly after he got out the very same day, stated that the power went out in the building while they were on the 23rd floor, since that statement basically nails them to the 23rd floor during the collapse of WTC 2. But on the other hand MM is more than happy to use the fact Hess in the same interview used the word "explosion", to describe his experience during the collapse of WTC 1 down on the 6th floor; then suddenly Hess is reliability himself. The problem if they were to contemplate any of this, is of course that it would be nothing left of the conspiracy theory they have spun out of the Jennings story, that would be to threatening to their world view.
In the posts I have attempted to take a more objective approach to what Jennings and Hess might have heard and felt, while they were inside their secluded position on the 23rd floor, than what we can get from just reading other witness accounts. Accounts that easily can mislead us to think that the effects were more pronounced than they were. And I concluded that it seemed plausible that they may not have noticed the shaking and the noise from the collapse of WTC 2.
But this does not in any way rule out that did not notice it either. If we look at the interviews given by Jennings and Hess, there is noting in the interviews ruling out that they did not hear and feel the collapse of WTC 2 while they were on the 23rd floor, even though they did not mention any noise or vibrations specifically.
This is what Jennings said about what he could hear from the outside in the interview done by Dylan Avery and Jason Bermas in 2007:
Source: Jennings interview (12:10)
For some reason Jennings thinks that Flight 175 hit WTC 2 while he was inside on the 23d floor, but he does not give a clear answer to why he thinks so. And what does he mean with; "I couldn't tell you because I was inside and I was like closed off from everything”. Did he mean that he did not hear anything? Or did he mean that he could not tell what it was he heard, because he could not see what was going on the outside?
They experienced at least one effect from the collapse of WTC 2; that being the power failure described by Hess in his short interview after being rescued the same day:
Source: Hess interview
The part about power failure is repeated in the 2005 summary NIST made of the interviews they did with Jennings and Hess in 2004:
Source: NIST NCSTAR 1-8 The Emergency Response Operations, later also covered in NIST NCSTAR 1-9.
It should be noted that noise and shaking is not specifically mentioned by NIST in relation to their experience, neither on the 23rd floor nor in relation to what happened down on the 6th floor. One could say that it is implicit in the word “collapsed”. Since they could not see what was going on outside, NIST quiet simply used the power failure as the strongest indication that they were on the 23rd floor when WTC 2 collapsed.
If I am going to sum this up, I would say that it would be disingenuous to pretend that the experience of Hess and Jennings on the 23rd floor would be equal to their experience on the 6th floor. Or for that matter the experience of Mike Catalano down on the 3rd floor in the lobby area, during the collapse of WTC 2. As it has been explained repeatedly, there was a magnitude of difference between how WTC 7 experienced the collapse of WTC 2 and then WTC 1.
Likewise during the collapse of WTC 2 Mike Catalano and his coworkers suffered a long drawn of ordeal down on the 3rd floor, even though the collapse itself was over in 10-15 seconds. After the noise and vibrations from the collapse itself were over, the lower floors of WTC 7 was hit by the dust cloud pushed out from the collapsed WTC 2. First they heard light debris carried by the cloud hitting and breaking window panes in the lobby area, next they were engulfed in chocking dust and darkness, while attempting to escape the building. And they had a view to collapse, so they knew something really bad was going on, and therefore feared for their lives.
Hess and Jennings were high above this mess not suffering from any effects of the dust cloud. Nor could they see what was going on outside. They may or may not have noticed the vibrations, something that is not in any way a given in an earthquake of equal magnitude to the collapse to WTC 2. They did register the lights flickering due to the power failure. Any noise they heard would at the least be more subdued than what Catalano experienced, because they had more walls between themselves and the exterior, while Catalano only had the lobby windows to shield him from the noise.
All in all, the reaction of Jennings and Hess at this stage could have been more on the level of "what was that"; not being to alarmed by what they may have heard and felt. At the time they may very well have attributed the effects to a technical mishap somewhere inside the building, causing the power failure. Nor were there any smoke and dust to cause them any alarm either.
And for why it took Jennings and Hess as long as 30 minutes to get down to the 6th floor, there is a plausible explanation for that to. After coming from the lobby the second time, they got into the EOC and found it empty. To find out why, they return to the elevator to go down again to the lobby to find out what is going on. As they return to the elevator WTC 2 collapses causing a power failure halting the elevators. Not feeling in any immediate danger and in the hope avoiding walking down 23 floors, Jennings and Hess returns to the EOC, where Jennings spends time making several telephone calls to find out what is going on. After some time he receives the call from one of his higher-ups who, is shocked(likely knowing that WTC 2 has collapsed) to find out that Jennings still is inside WTC 7, telling him to get out without telling them why. So when they finally leave for the stairwell the clock could very well be closer to the collapse of WTC 1, than it was to the collapse of WTC 2.
As expected conspiracy theorists like MM, does not want to contemplate for a second that the level of noise and shaking inside WTC 7 during the collapse of WTC 2, might not have been as pronounced as we intuitively would think. Nor that there are reasonable explanations for why it took Jennings and Hess nearly 30 minutes to get down to 6th floor. And especially, MM attempts to hand wave away the fact that Hess in an interview, shortly after he got out the very same day, stated that the power went out in the building while they were on the 23rd floor, since that statement basically nails them to the 23rd floor during the collapse of WTC 2. But on the other hand MM is more than happy to use the fact Hess in the same interview used the word "explosion", to describe his experience during the collapse of WTC 1 down on the 6th floor; then suddenly Hess is reliability himself. The problem if they were to contemplate any of this, is of course that it would be nothing left of the conspiracy theory they have spun out of the Jennings story, that would be to threatening to their world view.
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Oystein
Penultimate Amazing
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#oysteinbookmark
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
^^^^ seconded
Miragememories
Banned
Ok Spanx.
If someone was planning to use explosives to collapse 7 WTC, do you honestly believe it was necessary to
delay installation until detonation day?
The stairwell explosion from below the 6th floor landing appears to have been a premature 'planned' detonation.
It's timing poses a serious problem for those who wish to dismiss it.
Destructive stairwell explosions like the one that Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess encountered, have no innocent explanation.
Some people like to suggest that 1 WTC's collapse, 30 minutes after that of 2 WTC, caused the required severe internal damage to 7 WTC.
The NIST damage estimates for 7 WTC's 5th and 6th floors, show those stairwell locations would be very well shielded by undamaged columns and elevator shafts.
Now if that stairwell detonation had been delayed a few more minutes, until 2 WTC collapsed, it never would have gotten any attention.
During each tower's collapse, 7 WTC was shrouded in a dust cloud, an ideal time for more structure weakening blasts.
Gamolon
Master Poster
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Can you explain why Barry Jennings saw the towers still standing while also witnessing that part of WTC7 was gone?
It's amazing how you have managed to work everything out simply by listening to Jennings an Hess interviews. I guess that must be the only thing that happened that day.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
This also poses a serious problem for you because at the time (you claim), several people were still in the building and in the surrounding area(hundreds in the general area). No one else reported anything prior to the collapse of the towers. You're supporting an explosion strong enough to take out a stair-way but do no other damage to the building. All the windows in that area were still intact prior to the towers collapse.
You would almost think people around there would be more in-tune with their surroundings, you suggest they were oblivious.
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