'What about building 7'?

[Hellbound]

Re: Explosions

I've had this argument in the past in 9/11 threads, when I was more active in this subforum.

First, a bit about me. I'm no expert, but I am a U.S. Army trained Combat Engineer. For those who don't know, the missions of a CE are mobility and counter-mobility: we create obsticles to block or slow the enemy, remove structures that help the enemy move, remove obsticles that the enemy may have placed, and build structures to help our troops move. These include things like ditches, berms, walls, bridges, tunnels, craters, and similar. As one might expect, explosives are involved in a large bit of this.

I've been trained in non-electric blasting techniques, both using det cord and MDI. I've also personally experienced explosions ranging from firecrackers and hand grenades, though several-hundred pound explosions of C-4, up to multiple-ton explosions to destroy ordnance.

That being said, the majority of people in the U.S. do NOT know what an explosion sounds like. They get their idea of what explosions are like from movies and TV, which almost unilaterally get it wrong. They expect the large fireball, and the drawn-out, loud rumbling sound lasting several seconds.

That is not what happens.

It's a very sharp and quick boom, and any rumbling there might be would be caused by echos (or multiple charges: structure demolitions usually use multiple charges seperated by time, to control the rate and direction of collapse, and produce a longer, more drawn out sound). Assuming a large enough explosion (or one you're close enough to), you get a push from the shockwave along with this. Usually little flame, mostly a dust cloud and a lot of debris. One of the early Mythbusters episodes, when they destroyed the cement truck, is an excellent example for reference.

The sound associated with the typical movie/TV explosion is much more like what one would expect from a collapse: the loud, long rumbling and shaking lasting several seconds.

It is not unreasonable, and I would even suggest it as expected, that someone hearing a collapse, in the absense of visual cues, would describe it as an explosion.

Oddly enough, I've experienced the inverse: there are several times when an explosion ahs been heard by people who didn't have the visuals (distance listeners, for example), who thought it was a gunshot or a crash or some sort, rather than an explosion.

Take this for what you will, but thought I'd throw in a bit of info

 

[Miragememories]

This is a continuation of my post on shaking during the collapse of WTC 2.

Much of the debate around Jennings and Hess on the 23rd floor of WTC 7, has centered around what Jennings and Hess should have experienced during the collapse of WTC 2. When reading the accounts of what other persons inside WTC 7 experienced during the collapse of WTC 2, like for instance the account of Mike Catalano down in the lobby area on the 3rd floor, it would be natural to think that Jennings and Hess should have experienced something similar. But neither Jennings nor Hess mentions that they experienced any shaking and noise while on the 23rd floor, in the interviews we have seen.

As I mentioned in my former post on shaking during the collapse, it is entirely plausible that they did not notice the building shaking while they were on their way to the elevator, given the earthquake magnitude of the collapse.

I would say it is ridiculous to draw the above conclusion.

That leads us to the next question; how loud was the sound of the collapse of WTC 2 inside WTC 7.

The attempts at denial just do not end.

Previously, the official story argument being made was that the sound of explosions would have been far too loud to not be heard.

When a 'loudness' argument is used to show that Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess must have heard, and felt, the collapse of 2 WTC, the idea that the sound was not well conveyed becomes quite palatable for official story supporters.

"He was in the Chill box when the first plane hit and even in a sound proof room heard the boom."

"About 8:00, when everyone is in, we go up to the chiller plant above the top floor and have our morning meeting.

I was with Ron Friedman, Billy Rogers, and Doug Popola.

Around 8:45 we just felt and heard a thump. We didn’t hear an explosion, and we didn’t see anything, but we had heard the same exact thump in 1993, the bomb blast. We knew instantly it was something."

They heard this in a sound proof room!

And this wasn't the big one!

It was just the first aircraft impact.

Yet, when the 110 storey 2 WTC, once the tallest office tower in the world, collapses at high speed, you attempt to sell the argument that life on the 23rd floor was all peace and quiet.

I wrote that the EOC was located on the north side of the building, with offices for the permanent OEM staff along the south face of the building.

The exterior walls around the EOC was built with several layers of drywall and kevlar to protect against hurricanes, bomb blast and bullets.

To what extent the core and the south side of the floor was included in that protection I do not know, because I found a picture of Richard Sheirer, the former director of OEM, in his southwest corner office; that shows just ordinary office windows on that side.

So I will leave the effect of enhanced protection out of the equation.

The windows on Floor 23 facing WTC 2 would likely have had a STC rating of 30, like the windows down in the lobby area.

Meanwhile down in the 3rd floor lobby area when 2 WTC collapsed;

"The rumbling, the screeching, and the noises — you can’t imagine. I really can’t describe it."

It is difficult to judge how loud the collapse actually was.

But if we start out with a sound pressure level of 130 dB, that is the threshold of pain, by the time that sound reaches the exterior face of WTC 7 it would be down to a level of 83 - 93 dB, then after having passed through the exterior windows and some partition walls, it looks very much like it could be down to a level where Jennings and Hess did not notice it.

Or where the sound was masked out by a door slamming shut behind them, on their way to the elevator, etc."

It appears that you would be content to leave the whole 23rd floor out of the equation.

The south side was the side exposed to the tower's collapse.

You hypothesize that the unimaginable sounds and vibration felt by those people in the 3rd floor lobby for 10 seconds or so, could be easily masked by a simple door slam on the 23rd floor.

Absolutely incredible!

Especially when you consider the 30 minutes between the tower collapses argues against Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess being on the 23rd floor when 2 WTC collapsed.

 

[Miragememories]

"Re: Explosions...

That being said, the majority of people in the U.S. do NOT know what an explosion sounds like.

They get their idea of what explosions are like from movies and TV, which almost unilaterally get it wrong. They expect the large fireball, and the drawn-out, loud rumbling sound lasting several seconds.

That is not what happens.

It's a very sharp and quick boom, and any rumbling there might be would be caused by echos (or multiple charges: …

The sound associated with the typical movie/TV explosion is much more like what one would expect from a collapse: the loud, long rumbling and shaking lasting several seconds.

It is not unreasonable, and I would even suggest it as expected, that someone hearing a collapse, in the absense of visual cues, would describe it as an explosion.

Oddly enough, I've experienced the inverse: there are several times when an explosion has been heard by people who didn't have the visuals (distance listeners, for example), who thought it was a gunshot or a crash or some sort, rather than an explosion.

Take this for what you will, but thought I'd throw in a bit of info

Thank you for your input Hellbound.

My father was in the army engineers for 25 years.

I am not sure what point, if any, you are trying to make?

As an editor, and an older adult with much mass media consumer experience, it is my impression that the Hollywood-explosion, for most people, is found to be as realistic as professional wrestling.

When explosion sounds are edited properly, as in some movies, you get a film that better depicts reality.

Whether or not you could see it unfold, the momentous total collapse of 2 WTC in a thunderous crescendo of explosive sounds, could not be mistaken for a single explosion.

Likewise, an un-viewed single explosive event, would not be mistaken for the total collapse of 2 WTC.

The NIST claims that Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess were at the 23rd floor elevators when the “loud, long rumbling and shaking lasting several seconds” occurred.

Either Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess did not detect this event, or it was less dramatic than uneaten food.

I believe that even though they did not know what was occurring, Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess shared this colossal event with everyone else in 7 WTC.

But, based on testimony, and testable empiric evidence, Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess were on the 8th floor when 2 WTC collapsed, as Mr. Jennings insisted up to the day he died. R.I.P.

Everyone ignores the problem of the official story’s failure to explain how the two men managed to consume a full half hour in their descent to the 6th floor.

I have seen time test results that show a fast 2 minutes, and up to a relaxed 6 minutes, for a descent to the 6th floor landing.

Up until the explosion below the 6th floor, we know they had stairwell lighting.

Though Mr. Jenning’s claim of leaping landings, may be hard to believe, his sincerity about ‘hurrying’ out of a sense of urgency, is not.

24 minutes is a lot of unexplained time when evacuating to a destination only 6 minutes away.

But, if you apply that time to after they retreat from the 6th floor to the 8th floor, Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess had ~20 minutes before 2 WTC collapsed.

Time to see that both of the WTC twin towers were still standing, shortly before the first collapse.

 

[JayUtah]

I am not sure what point, if any, you are trying to make?

That what you're calling explosions in eyewitness testimony are not really detonations of explosive devices. The same thing I tried to tell you months ago. You ignored it then and you're ignoring it now. You desperately need these witnesses to have heard "explosions," not merely loud, rumbling noises.

Everyone ignores the problem of the official story’s failure...

And off you go, changing the subject. You might start getting used to the idea that there's a reason none of the qualified experts buys into the "controlled demolition" theory.

 

[Spanx]

I just can't understand why MM is so bent on trying to make people believe his version of events which some how explains explosions connected to some form of controlled demolition

Who would a man in his sixties try to do this without providing any evidence ?

What am I missing ?

 

[Hellbound]

As an editor, and an older adult with much mass media consumer experience, it is my impression that the Hollywood-explosion, for most people, is found to be as realistic as professional wrestling.

When explosion sounds are edited properly, as in movies like Saving Private Ryan, you get a film that better depicts reality.

Ah. I see. So Saving Private Ryan used realistic explosions?

Thank you for proving my point.

 

[Gamolon]

The attempts at denial just do not end.

According to Barry Jennings:

When we made it back to the 8th floor... As I told you earlier... Both buildings were still standing because I looked... Two... I looked one way, looked the other way, now there's nothing there.

What does the latter part of this quote mean MM? Does it mean in the time he swiveled his head to look both ways, both towers collapsed? Or does the "now there's nothing there" mean he was talking about the gouged out portion of WTC7? You keep leaving out the latter part of his quote because it's detrimental to your theory. If he was saying he saw both towers, turned his head one way, looked back, and they were gone, that's a problem for your theories. If he was saying that he looked one way, saw the towers, looked the other way and part of WTC7 was gone, THAT'S a problem for your theory.

One of the issues here is that Barry's belief that he saw the two towers standing at the time he did was strengthened by his incorrect thinking that the firefighters ran away each time a tower came down. That was shown to be incorrect.

Another issue is with his thinking he experienced an explosion. This particular belief was strengthened by both his seeing the gouged out part of WTC7 and the state the lobby was in when he rescued. Both scenes he saw were caused by the collapses of WTC1.

If Barry would have shown he was incorrect about why the firefighters ran away twice, why WTC7 was gouged out, and why the lobby was destroyed, he would have to rethink his explanations.

The other thing that bothers me is that you easily say that Hess changes his story because "they/he" wanted it to fit the official story. On the other hand, Barry says, just after his rescue, that he got to the 8th floor and was blown BACK into the 8th floor from the explosion. Then when being interviewed by truthers, he changes his story to hearing an explosion, the landing giving way, his dangling from a pole, and then climbing back up to the 8th floor. How do you forget those things when doing your first interview right after the event?

 

[thedopefishlives]

That what you're calling explosions in eyewitness testimony are not really detonations of explosive devices. The same thing I tried to tell you months ago. You ignored it then and you're ignoring it now. You desperately need these witnesses to have heard "explosions," not merely loud, rumbling noises.



And off you go, changing the subject. You might start getting used to the idea that there's a reason none of the qualified experts buys into the "controlled demolition" theory.

Jay pretty much hit it out of the park with this response, MM. An explosive detonation, by definition, is a supersonic blast, whereas an explosion can be characterized as "any loud boom". By conflating the two, you are discounting the fact that there are lots of other things besides explosives that can go boom. But you've already determined that they heard bombs, so therefore "explosions" in their eyewitness testimony has to mean "detonations" or else your theory falls apart.

 

[Hellbound]

Jay pretty much hit it out of the park with this response, MM. An explosive detonation, by definition, is a supersonic blast, whereas an explosion can be characterized as "any loud boom". By conflating the two, you are discounting the fact that there are lots of other things besides explosives that can go boom. But you've already determined that they heard bombs, so therefore "explosions" in their eyewitness testimony has to mean "detonations" or else your theory falls apart.

Which ties into the point I was making. Deflagrations, low explosives, high explosives, large impacts, collapses, all of these can be confused for each other to someone who is unfamiliar with the sounds and effects (in real life, not movies/TV) and doesn't understand the difference.

Not to mention that explosives are not all equal. You have fuel "explosions" and fuel-air explosions, which are technically controlled deflagrations, not explosives. Fuel deflagrations are what typically get used in movies instead of explosives, because they give more visual effects and a longer "boom", which adds to drama. A fuel-air bomb is highly effective at taking out structures and reducing them to very small pieces, but it's not something that could do a controlled demolition...and it's highly noticeable. Low explosives, and lower-speed high explosives, are typically used to move stuff around. These are used in cratering charges and similar. They are very effective at taking down interior walls and contents in a building, but to used them to take out structural members and collapse a building is, again, highly noticeable. Then you have things like C-4 and other high explosives, that are primarily referred to as cutting explosives. That's what you use to sever steel and similar. The cut more than push, and can easily sever structural members without causing a lot of collateral damage (comparatively). Yet they sound much different from what people associate with explosions.

Basically, it is many, many times more likely that the witness simply mis-interpreted what he heard, then that everyone else (including the dozens of other witness statements that would have to be incorrect for the timeline MM proposes to be right) is wrong. Not to mention that MM seems to be content to accept that many other parts of the account were incorrect/wrong, yet insists that these two people, with no experience around explosions or building collapses, would never mistakenly identify a sound.

 

[DGM]

......................Time to see that both of the WTC twin towers were still standing, shortly before the first collapse.

....and as everyone knows is the part of Mr Jennings account that could not possibly be in error.

Finished that for you.

 

[Redwood]

Excellent work, Norseman!

Useful video!
It bears noticing that before the collapse of either tower commences, there are no "sounds of explosions", and there are no "squibs" or any other visible hints for blasts. The sound level just swells from zero, and all the visuals start with the commencement of the collapse itself.........

During the second collapse, at 1:26:43, while the debris plume falls under the WTC7 roofline, the core spire comes into view, amazingly unobstructed by dust, sways, and remains standing for another 17 seconds before starting to fall. That's a bit off-topic here, but

Agree! That's a very useful video, the only video that one needs for a basic understanding of the WTC events up to the collapse of the North Tower. I don't know why it hasn't been discussed more.

Two more points: The part of the "spire" that one sees is clearly an outer core column, one which held up the floor assemblies, not an inner core column, as some Truthers have said.

There is a report over the TV of a fire at the State Dept. Another false story from that day, perfectly understandable in the chaos and confusion. But somehow, erroneous reports prove to conspiracists that the whole thing was a vast plot with the media involved somehow.

Perhaps Ms.Weil's video deserves a thread of its own?

 

[jaydeehess]

Originally Posted by Mike Catalano, Former Building Engineer WTC7
"The rumbling, the screeching, and the noises — you can’t imagine. I really can’t describe it."

And just what do you think was creating those sounds?

Catalano had no warning that the effects of WTC 2 collapsing were about to rock his world. Sounds from WTC 2 would have been travelling at the speed of sound, slower than the dust and debris coming at WTC7. He did not hear those sounds, even in the non-sound proofed third floor lobby, or if they were audible he did not notice them until his concentration on writing a number down (not exactly high calculus) was broken by the sounds of breaking windows and being choked with dust.

So what sounds is he describing? The sound of debris smashing windows, and bouncing into the lobby would be a big contributor. Yes at this time, as he is dealing with choking dust and has completely disregarded his original task of being on the phone writing down a number, he probably then was also noticing the rumbling of the collapse of WTC2.
IOW the task of talking on the phone and writing down a number was enough distraction to not notice the sounds of collapse and cause him to look up just before the windows broke and allowed in a massive amount of dust.

Now cut to the 23rd floor, to two men who are told to evac from a room with no view of WTC2, no windows breaking on their floor (windows breaking no higher than probably 18-20 floors below them), and no heavy dust in the air on the 23rd floor. How much distraction would it take to not notice sounds from WTC 2 collapsing if a guy on the third floor (with little in the way of sound dampening office furnishings) was distracted enough not to?

 

[TJM]

Everyone ignores the problem of the official story’s failure to explain how the two men managed to consume a full half hour in their descent to the 6th floor.

I have seen time test results that show a fast 2 minutes, and up to a relaxed 6 minutes, for a descent to the 6th floor landing.

How many of these time tests were conducted in the type of environment Jennings and Hess faced?

 

[jaydeehess]

24 minutes is a lot of unexplained time when evacuating to a destination only 6 minutes away.

But, if you apply that time to after they retreat from the 6th floor to the 8th floor, Mr. Jennings and Mr. Hess had ~20 minutes before 2 WTC collapsed.

So Jennings and Hess, desperate to get out, rush down 17 flights of emergency lighting illuminated stairs, beginning the moment WTC2 collapses, in suits and dress shoes. This makes a 24 minute descent odd.

Experiencing choking dust, total darkness and an "explosion" close by in the building they were so desperate to get out of, groping their way up two flights of stairs in the dark and dust, making their way to the NE window and breaking it to call for assistance since they are trapped in the building they desperately want out of,,,,,,,, then wandering about for 30 minutes, is not at all odd?

 

[Miragememories]

When an Explosion is an Explosion

Back on 9/11, even Mr. Hess agreed that he experienced an explosion from below the 6th floor stairwell landing.

The very first explosion that Mr. Jennings identified, was the one where he fell through the 6th floor stairwell landing.

He believed it came from below.

This is the explosion from which Mr. Hess said their descent was blocked, so they retreated to a safer location, 2 storeys up on the 8th floor.

The explosive events outside of 7 WTC (2 WTC collapsing, and at + 30 minutes, 1 WTC collapsing), unquestionably produced damaging debris fall.

It has been proposed that a random victim of WTC debris was one of 7 WTC's two 6th floor reinforced concrete stairwell landings.

They were extremely well shielded locations, yet supposedly, falling debris broke through, and caused enough of a 6th floor landing to break, that Mr. Jennings fell through and was briefly left hanging from a railing pole.

After years of investigation, the NIST engineers arrived at their estimates for the debris damage to 7 WTC from the collapsing WTC twin towers.

For the floors in question, the 5th and 6th, even the NIST engineer's estimates show that the internal damage on those floors, was well away from either of the protected stairwells.

Each stairwell was shielded by two major columns and additionally by the walls of heavily constructed elevator shafts.

So what we have, is a very bad argument for WTC debris impact being mistaken for an explosion below the 6th floor stairwell landing.

 

[Spanx]

Ok MM,

Let's assume you are correct. What reason would anyone have to plant explosives in WTC7 at such an early stage of the day and what would be the purpose ?

Obviously Jennings or Hess didn't see any suspicious behaviour and did not mention any such thing in their interviews.

How about you tell us all what really happened.

 

[JSanderO]

Ok MM,

Let's assume you are correct. What reason would anyone have to plant explosives in WTC7 at such an early stage of the day and what would be the purpose ?

Obviously Jennings or Hess didn't see any suspicious behaviour and did not mention any such thing in their interviews.

How about you tell us all what really happened.

No reason... electrical or mechanical equipment exploded... cause undetermined... perhaps electrical ignition of fuel... flammable gas? Or electrical equipment exploding? or HVAC equipment exploding?

 

[Spanx]

No reason... electrical or mechanical equipment exploded... cause undetermined... perhaps electrical ignition of fuel... flammable gas? Or electrical equipment exploding? or HVAC equipment exploding?

Absolutely, there could be any number of reasons for an explosion especially on that day.

I guess the question is, why does MM have it in his head thirteen years after the event that he knows it was some form of CD simply by listening to Barry Jennings interviews

Although he does seem to have gone off the thermite trail. I guess he must just be Trolling because nobody seems to agree with him.

 

[TJM]

Back on 9/11, even Mr. Hess agreed that he experienced an explosion from below the 6th floor stairwell landing.

The very first explosion that Mr. Jennings identified, was the one where he fell through the 6th floor stairwell landing.

He believed it came from below.

This is the explosion from which Mr. Hess said their descent was blocked, so they retreated to a safer location, 2 storeys up on the 8th floor.

The explosive events outside of 7 WTC (2 WTC collapsing, and at + 30 minutes, 1 WTC collapsing), unquestionably produced damaging debris fall.

It has been proposed that a random victim of WTC debris was one of 7 WTC's two 6th floor reinforced concrete stairwell landings.

They were extremely well shielded locations, yet supposedly, falling debris broke through, and caused enough of a 6th floor landing to break, that Mr. Jennings fell through and was briefly left hanging from a railing pole.

[qimg]http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/8526/wtc7fl8edit4pp2.png[/qimg]

After years of investigation, the NIST engineers arrived at their estimates for the debris damage to 7 WTC from the collapsing WTC twin towers.

For the floors in question, the 5th and 6th, even the NIST engineer's estimates show that the internal damage on those floors, was well away from either of the protected stairwells.

Each stairwell was shielded by two major columns and additionally by the walls of heavily constructed elevator shafts.

[qimg]http://i1265.photobucket.com/albums/jj515/Miragememories/NISTWTC7dmageflr5amp6_zps71380853.png[/qimg]

So what we have, is a very bad argument for WTC debris impact being mistaken for an explosion below the 6th floor stairwell landing.

What you have is a strawman.

I don't know of anyone other than you that believes Jennings was left dangling from a pole.

 

[GlennB]

Although he does seem to have gone off the thermite trail. I guess he must just be Trolling because nobody seems to agree with him.

His pov is that nano-thermite can be engineered across the whole range of effects from plain incendiary right up to genuinely explosive.