'What about building 7'?

[jaydeehess]

Because he's attempting to create a false dichotomy where the witness is either supporting the conspiracy theory in question, or the witness is lying. This is a very popular tactic with conspiracists, used to attempt to shame their critics into accepting questionable witness testimony. Of course it never works, but that doesn't stop conspiracists from trying.

How true!

 

[LSSBB]

How true!

Just once, I want to see one of them acknowledge a false dichotomy, and not just blow right by it like it never happened. That would be the honorable thing, I think.

 

[Grizzly Bear]

Won't happen. If you dont agree that the testimony supports a CD scenario your mind is already closed. There are no mistakes or inaccuracies ever in eye witness testimony as long as it supports CD

 

[Animal]

How could you honestly not include "He was mistaken", "misremembered", or "unclear" as options?

I remember witnessing a hit and run accident a few years ago......it was a quick incident, the driver it a car in the middle of the street, quickly turned the corner and fled. There were multiple witnesses, and the police interviews happened within 15 minutes. Three different car colors (similar tonal range but different...black, grey dark blue), 3-4 different car styles, multiple descriptions of how it happened depending on vantage point. There were no lies......just different perceptions of what happened.

 

[jaydeehess]

As I wrote above, I just yesterday experienced a near accident and there are parts of the incident the really bring home how unreliable memory of experiences can be/
I have no recollection of seeing the first vehicle stop because there was another, large one between it and me. I recall the nonverbal thought that something was wrong. That would be that the car right in front of me was getting 'bigger'. At about the same time that it clicked that he was stopped, his brakes lights came on. As I hit my brakes the part of the brain that calculates things automatically indicated that I would not stop in time and I cranked the wheel right. Thanks to antilock brakes I barely swerved around the stopped car and only then, as I looked to my left, did I see the small truck, older grey Ford Ranger or Mazda, that had been rear ended.
Jennings had no way of knowing that the towers had come down and that that had severely damaged the building he was in because he was never in a position to see it.
When he was taken out of the building he says it was through a hole that someone had cut in the wall. Was it, or was it a hole created by WTC1 debris? At this point he still seems completely unaware that WTC7 has been heavily damaged by WTC1.

 

[Richard the G]

Won't happen. If you dont agree that the testimony supports a CD scenario your mind is already closed. There are no mistakes or inaccuracies ever in eye witness testimony as long as it supports CD

I think buildings on fire, glass falling, exploding pipes etc tends to make you focus on what is going on in your immediate vicinity rather than look out windows to see what's going on

Check out this video on YouTube that helps show awareness. http://youtu.be/47LCLoidJh4

 

[Miragememories]

<snipped irrelevant tale>
Jennings had no way of knowing that the towers had come down and that that had severely damaged the building he was in because he was never in a position to see it.

When he was taken out of the building he says it was through a hole that someone had cut in the wall.

Was it, or was it a hole created by WTC1 debris?

At this point he still seems completely unaware that WTC7 has been heavily damaged by WTC1.

I am not disputing the fact that at the time of their collapse, Mr. Jennings was in the 7 WTC, 8th floor NE office, and therefore did not observe the destruction of the WTC twin towers.

But, he was in a position to observe that they were standing after he arrived at the 8th floor earlier before 10 am.

He did observe the fleeing firefighters at two seperate times.

He did observe some of the post collapse results, i.e. burning vehicles and the destruction to the 7 WTC lobby.

In addition, when he went home a few hours later, the gaps in his observations were filled by the repetitive News coverage.

He was told the both WTC twin towers collapsed, at what time, and how it looked, including the massive dust cloud.

If he had not experienced the collapses from that 7 WTC corner office, he would have immediately realized something was extremely wrong in his recall.

He would have asked himself the obvious question; "Where were the engulfing clouds of WTC dust that were part of what drove the firefighters away?"

He would then have to conclude that he was halucinating when he looked and saw the WTC twin towers when he arrived at the 7 WTC 8th floor earlier.

But, Mr. Jennings never had that new realization because he did not see any contradiction to his original observations.

He obviously must have witnessed those engulfing clouds of dust each time the firefighters fled.

Years later he still was certain of his observations in spite of the efforts by others to convince him otherwise.

 

[DGM]

Years later he still was certain of his observations in spite of the efforts by others to convince him otherwise.

That's fine, he remembers it like he did. It doesn't change the fact he remembered it wrong. He was mistaken.

Are you going to admit your false dichotomy or are you going to trudge along like all the rest?

 

[Grizzly Bear]

I think buildings on fire, glass falling, exploding pipes etc tends to make you focus on what is going on in your immediate vicinity rather than look out windows to see what's going on

Check out this video on YouTube that helps show awareness. http://youtu.be/47LCLoidJh4

Conspiracies center on the false dichotomy that witnesses don't do exactly that... the idea that what they say should be taken into the most literal interpretation possible without accounting for the context. I believe this was pointed out by you and numerous more members over the years, and it is still pushed. If you have concluded that the buildings were not "CD'd" the answer you get is that you have "closed your mind", you are accusing the witness of "lying" or "ignoring" the witnesses testimony altogether.

There's a certain amount to which I sympathize with MM on the flood of responses and the harshness of some people's attacks going beyond simply picking apart his argument, but fact is, he makes the above interpretations... people clarify this very clearly that no... we do not consider witnesses liars because their interpretations are inaccurate... and he believes he can disregard those critiques based solely on the idea that his critics are "close-minded" or too "belligerent" (and he's not the only one... he's just the only one active at the moment). My "sarc" was just intended to point that that out... not that others haven't pointed out already.

 

[000063]

...Bottom-line, Mr. Jennings either saw the WTC twin towers still standing when was on the 8th floor, or he must be lying.

I cannot see any reason why a man in his position would tell such a lie while not knowing who might be available to testify against him.

How many times have people said he was wrong by this point? Yet you still keep strawmanning it to "lying". If you're having such trouble understanding the folks you're actually talking to, right now...

Conspiracies center on the false dichotomy that witnesses don't do exactly that... the idea that what they say should be taken into the most literal interpretation possible without accounting for the context. ...

No, the most convenient interpretation for the truther. Cf "melting steel", which has never been part of the "official story".

 

[Africanus]

But, he was in a position to observe that they were standing after he arrived at the 8th floor earlier before 10 am.

He did observe the fleeing firefighters at two seperate times.

I really wonder, how Jennings could have missed this:

He did observe some of the post collapse results, i.e. burning vehicles and the destruction to the 7 WTC lobby.

His timeline was: Breaking windows - seeing the burning cars - trying to escape via a hose - collapse of Twin Towers

This is not in agreement with his claim that the twin towers collapsed while he was trapped in WTC 7.

If he had not experienced the collapses from that 7 WTC corner office, he would have immediately realized something was extremely wrong in his recall.

He would have asked himself the obvious question; "Where were the engulfing clouds of WTC dust that were part of what drove the firefighters away?"

That's nothing but mere speculation.

 

[Miragememories]

How many times have people said he was wrong by this point?

Yet you still keep strawmanning it to "lying".

There is a big difference between saying someone is wrong and proving someone is wrong.

Obviously if Mr. Jennings is right, than someone and something, is awfully wrong.

The amount of time and energy OCTers put into attacking Mr. Jenning's testimony attests to how much they fear the message contained in what he observed.

I do not believe he is lying and it seems incredible to me that on a day that seared so many with its horrific images, that Mr. Jennings only imagined he remembered seeing the WTC twin towers.

People like yourself just cannot bring yourself to believe that others were complicit in the events of 9/11 and remain free.

 

[DGM]

People like yourself just cannot bring yourself to believe that others were complicit in the events of 9/11 and remain free.

.................and Mr Jennings was the only one to get it right.

Why can't you accept the fact Mr Jennings could have got it wrong? It means more to you then to anyone here. We can accept the whole body of testimony without bias, you can't. Who's the believer here?

 

[000063]

There is a big difference between saying someone is wrong and proving someone is wrong.

Obviously if Mr. Jennings is right, than someone and something, is awfully wrong.

"If".

The amount of time and energy OCTers put into attacking Mr. Jenning's testimony attests to how much they fear the message contained in what he observed.

There's a difference between attacking the testimony itself and disagreeing with your interpretation of it.

I do not believe he is lying and it seems incredible to me that on a day that seared so many with its horrific images, that Mr. Jennings only imagined he remembered seeing the WTC twin towers.

It seems incredible to me that you place such faith in eyewitness recollections of stressful events, which are well-known for being unreliable.

People like yourself just cannot bring yourself to believe that others were complicit in the events of 9/11 and remain free.

Personally, I haven't questioned Jennings' testimony. What I have done is point out the lack of any sort of theory from Truthers that is even physically possible, in 13 years.

I have, however, asked you to back up several claims with regard to the alleged CDs, including finding any CD, ever that produced the...unique sound properties you claim were the case on 9/11. Best you've been able to do is waffle about some sort of special explosives that conveniently happened to behave, sonically, unlike any other CD known to man. Including not killing or injuring people who were inside the buildings being destroyed.

 

[JayUtah]

Obviously if Mr. Jennings is right, than someone and something, is awfully wrong.

The more you have to rewrite the rest of the evidence to suit the testimony of one witness, the more likely it is that witness isn't correct. Jennings is all you have. That's why he needs to be right at all costs.

The amount of time and energy OCTers put into attacking Mr. Jenning's testimony attests to how much they fear the message contained in what he observed.

No. The amount of time spent challenging Jennings' testimony is in direct proportion to the amount of time you've spent propping him up. We don't "fear the message." Get over yourself.

...it seems incredible to me that on a day that seared so many...

Your feelings don't change the well-known properties of eyewitness testimony. No matter how much you need certain things to be "seared into" Jenning's memory, that sort of thing doesn't happen.

People like yourself just cannot bring yourself to believe that others were complicit in the events of 9/11 and remain free.

No, we're not ideologically challenged simply because we don't buy your nonsense. Get over yourself.

 

[GlennB]

I am not disputing the fact that at the time of their collapse, Mr. Jennings was in the 7 WTC, 8th floor NE office, and therefore did not observe the destruction of the WTC twin towers.

But, he was in a position to observe that they were standing after he arrived at the 8th floor earlier before 10 am.

Earlier in the thread it took the wild horses of logic, inferential evidence and, finally, Gamolon's post 2171 to convince you that WTC7 was not BJ's normal workplace.

Now, there is overwhelming evidence that the OEM was the last part to be evacuated (the OEM part is but one clue), putting BJ's first arrival there at around 9:45. He and Hess then had to go back down, back up, look around and make a few calls before beginning their own evacuation attempt. Shall we call it 10:00 by now?

WTC2 collapsed at 9:59, coinciding with J+H finding no power to the elevators.

Do you now accept that they arrived closer to 10:00 than 09:00, or do we have to get out the wild horses again?

 

[Miragememories]

Earlier in the thread it took the wild horses of logic, inferential evidence and, finally, Gamolon's post 2171 to convince you that WTC7 was not BJ's normal workplace.

Now, there is overwhelming evidence that the OEM was the last part to be evacuated (the OEM part is but one clue), putting BJ's first arrival there at around 9:45. He and Hess then had to go back down, back up, look around and make a few calls before beginning their own evacuation attempt. Shall we call it 10:00 by now?

WTC2 collapsed at 9:59, coinciding with J+H finding no power to the elevators.

Do you now accept that they arrived closer to 10:00 than 09:00, or do we have to get out the wild horses again?

I accept that he arrived at the 8th floor prior to the collapse of the WTC twin towers.

I am flexible on the timing of events prior to that.

You are embracing guesstimates as if they are computer time and date stamped.

When it comes to Mr. Jenning's time estimates, you crap all over them.

When other estimates are provided that allow you to contradict Mr. Jennings you gladly embrace them as if they were from God.

Eye witness testimony seems to be inviolate when you guys want it to be but only then.

People were not writing exact times in log books and in all the excitement and the need to look good, I expect the provided times, depending on who provided them, were guesses and/or embellishments.

The only times we can accept with certainty are when the planes attacked and when the WTC towers fell.

 

[GlennB]

The only times we can accept with certainty are when the planes attacked and when the WTC towers fell.

We can reject his idea that he arrived before the 2nd strike, as there were people in the OEM watching exactly that on TV. People continued to head there (including BJ of course). We know the OEM was the last part of WTC7 to be evacuated, something that was completed at or a little before 9:45. J+H must have arrived at the OEM after that.

Agreed?

 

[Gamolon]

When it comes to Mr. Jenning's time estimates, you crap all over them.

When other estimates are provided that allow you to contradict Mr. Jennings you gladly embrace them as if they were from God.

Can you explain something MM?

Why, in Jennings' first interview, RIGHT AFTER HE WAS RESCUED, did he state the following:

...we made it to the 8th floor...big explosion...blew us back into the 8th floor...

...and then later, he states this:

When we reached the 8th flo... 6th floor... the landing we were standing on gave way... there was an explosion... then the landing gave way. I was left there hanging... and when... I was left there hanging... I had to climb back up and now I had to walk back up to the 8th floor.

Why does one account have him being blown back into the 8th floor and one having the landing give way forcing him to climb back up in order to walk to the 8th floor?

 

[Gamolon]

MM,

Where do you think Barry was when Richard Bylicki observed the second impact in the OEM on a live video feed? Africanus brought this up previously?

(After the impact of AA 11 into WTC 1 - Africanus) Director Odermatt quickly debriefed me and instructed me to open the Emergency Operations Center (EOC) for a fully staffed operation, which I did. While in the EOC I assisted the Watch Command in handling an enormous influx of telephone calls, many from top City officials. During this time I observed the second plane hit the South tower via live video feed.

According to the document the above quote was taken from, the OEM was evacuated and everyone met in the lobby of WTC7.