JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
I will be when you answer my questions above. Since you're back in the debate today, I assume that won't take too long.
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I will be when you answer my questions above. Since you're back in the debate today, I assume that won't take too long.
Miragememories
Banned
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
So you're both making a personal attack and refusing to answer my questions. Gotcha.
No wonder Jennings thought there was an explosion, the Kinetic energy impact of WTC tower debris would be greater shock to the structure than an explosion, but then you don't care about the truth. 911 and you prefer to spread and support lies dumbed down to mislead people about 911.
The Kinetic Energy impact of the debris imparts all the energy into the structure, unlike an explosion which would turn Jennings brain to mush.
No steel had explosives blast evidence. Put that in your fantasy. Oops, reality does not mix with your line of dumbed down claims and ignoring all evidence. 13th year, and your peers remain people like the Boston bombers - and kids who google up lies and believe them.
Justin39640
Illuminator
- Joined
- May 22, 2009
- Messages
- 4,202
Pristine building theory.
You think that nothing else on the 6th floor was damaged after those columns/floor segments were removed??? That isn't a diagram of where debris fell and what got pushed, crumpled, etc, etc.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
Could you point out where in the building Mr Jennings was (and at what time) he observed the towers still standing?
I'm sure you can also connect this time to the other events he mentioned.
MM, give us his "smoking gun" timeline. I'd bet you weasel out of this challenge.
LSSBB
Devilish Dictionarian
tsig
a carbon based life-form
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2005
- Messages
- 39,049
You're right, thanks.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
This is true.
Naturally, the mental gymnastic MM uses to skirt answering this simple question will be more telling than his answer. On the other hand, he could lie................
My prediction. He accuses me of calling Mr Jennings a liar.
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jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
oh MM, CLEARLY it did.
The first visible result of the collapse is a failure that results in the EPH falling in. This very much suggests that column 79 failed.
What happens subsequent to that is the development of the 'kink' in the north facade and the tilting of the sections east and west of that line towards this initial line of failure.
In addition, at about the same time as the tilting towards a column 79 line of failure, the rooftop structures west of the EPH then begin falling in. This highly suggests a progression of core failure. The section of the building west of the kink then falls to the south, suggesting a tilt in that direction, ie. towards the core failure.
So human ears are less likely to be flooded by a "streetscape cacophony of noise" than microphones. Got it. And the complete lack of windows blown out
Um, the barotrauma would've, at least, deafened him. If he didn't get killed. Of course, that assumes explosions consistent with explosives, and we're all well aware of attempts to conflate the two. As well as claiming dozens of columns were blown in a manner completely invisible to people outside the building. You know, the building chock-full of fire and smoke, which would make any rapid change in air pressure even more visible than usual.
What a surprise, a Gish Gallop that doesn't actually acknowledge the challenge, much less answer it.
Dodge on.
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
Which are apparently the same as kindergarten playground rules. It is distressing that Truthers can be driven so quickly to name-calling and dodging just by a few simple questions.
The analysis Miragememories has made selectively starts and ends so as to seem anomalous. It's reasonable to ask how that demarcation was chosen.
Expertise in audio recording is of some applicability here, but MM has made several other assertions that would ordinarily require expert knowledge of structural mechanics. It's reasonable to ask for a foundation for those assertions, since first that's how expertise is normally established, and second they form a large portion of the expectations against which the observed behavior of the structure is being measured and declared anomalous.
Expertise in audio recording doesn't negate the complete lack of all other evidence for the use of explosives. Further, we have another expert who is challenging the application of that expertise to attempt to explain why no explosives were heard to discharge. It is quite reasonable to ask under what line of reasoning explosives are the parsimonious explanation for the body of evidence.
We have one alleged eyewitness to the use of explosives, but he can attest only to having heard a concussive sound. He was not in a position to determine the nature of its source. Since his account correlates in all other respects with the impact of tower debris upon the WTC 7 structure, that remains the most acceptable interpretation. The notion that the witness was too far away to have heard the debris strikes is entirely begged. Further, it must be balanced with all the other witnesses and evidence that would have attested to actual explosives, but do not. It is quite reasonable to point out the flagging attempts to rehabilitate this witness.
Reasonable questions doth not pomposity make.
Redwood
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- May 9, 2012
- Messages
- 1,557
Um, no.
AFAIK, the only cameras that caught the start of the collapse were two continuously running mounted cameras and two interviews using WTC 7 as a background. And they don't record any sound. Perhaps you can point us to a video of typical demolition where the sound of the charges can't be heard? No? I thought not.Every other camera operator missed the onset, it was so quiet. Who do you have reporting explosions just before the collapse, other than Kevin McPadden, he of the ever changing story and the "Red Cross countdown"?
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
This is true.
Naturally, the mental gymnastic MM uses to skirt answering this simple question will be more telling than his answer. On the other hand, he could lie................
My prediction. He accuses me of calling Mr Jennings a liar.
I can't believe MM has posted since this post and he hasn't "schooled" me.
Grizzly Bear
このマスクに&#
Um, no.
Not only do they not record any sound, MM's evidence relies purely on anecdotal evidence that has to be manipulated to sound remotely "legit". But then we have to take his/her word that the explosives had a delayed impact on the building if we take the testimony literally, and that the physical evidence was somehow perfectly and completely removed from the scene so that no explosive debris/residue was ever found by anyone. The evidences is so full of holes it's like a pile of swiss cheese...
It's even worse than that for the argument he/she is making... there's no "proof of CD" that exists, period. "Free fall" is not a "cause", it's an "effect" and it is assumed to be exclusive to CD with no argumentative backing. He/she - like other conspiracy believers - believes that an engineering analysis is made by cursory views of incomplete video records.
On one hand some responses are rude and derogatory to the recipient for sure, on the other hand I see absolutely no reason why anyone should offer benefit of the doubt or be gone easy on for the sort of holes that exist in their argument. It fails before the question of whether NIST is legit or not ever enters the discussion, end of story.
Miragememories
Banned
As you can see, the damage from WTC1 debris fall is well away from the destroyed 6th floor stairwell.
Barry Jennings (Emergency Coordinator) said he was driving to his office at the WTC, under excellent traffic conditions when he was informed that a small Cessna had hit the WTC (9:52 am) and he was asked to man the Office of Emergency Management (OEM) at WTC 7 on the 23rd floor.
Upon his arrival, he found police all in the lobby who escorted him to the elevator which took himself and Mr. Hess (NYC Corporation Counsel) to the 23rd floor OEM.
The OEM was locked so they returned to the ground floor lobby and police and security took them back up in a freight elevator and they were able to get into the OEM.
He observed that the OEM was deserted.
He started placing inquiry phone calls when informed by one that he should leave immediately.
According to the NIST Report on WTC7, at 9:03 am there was a short power outage when WTC2 was struck. This would have made the elevators inoperable.
At 9:59 am when WTC2 collapsed, all power was lost to the WTC complex but this was temporary at WTC7 as its emergency generator would automatically have switched on.
Many claim that it was this second power interruption, which inhibited Jennings and Hess from taking the elevator, was in fact the 9:59 collapse of WTC2. We are asked to believe that from approximately 8:52+ am to 9:59 am Barry Jennings was consumed by such limited activity and that at no time was he informed by police or security about the second impact and the obvious WTC7 early evacuations.
We are also expected to believe that it took them almost half an hour (9:59 am-10:28 am) to arrive at the 6th floor landing (I timed this myself in the building where I work and it took me about 5-6 minutes at an unhurried pace.)
Continuing on.
So Jennings and Hess were hurrying down the stairs when an explosion blew out the 6th floor stairwell landing they were on, leaving them hanging.
According to the official story, this was 10:28 am when WTC1 collapsed.
Fortunately, they made it back up to the 8th floor.
As can be seen by the NIST provided floorplan for floor 7 of WTC7, neither stairwell was even close to the area of WTC7 that was damaged by falling debris from WTC1.
Even though well shielded by columns and elevator banks, we are expected to believe that debris penetration was so intense as to be able to explosively remove the 6th floor stairwell landing.
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
That's very much more plausible than your insinuation that an explosive powerful enough to destroy and remove structure within a few meters of their position did not kill them outright.
You have no clue how such explosives work.
DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
You post no time-line for this. What time was the OEM ordered evacuated and what time did he return to find it was?
Where was he when he thought he saw the towers still standing and where is this in relation to the OEM evacuation time-line?
I know these answers, that's why I'm asking you.
I know exactly where he was at 10:28 AM.
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DGM
Skeptic not Atheist
No, we're asking you what time the OEM was evacuated and at what time this was accomplish.
It would really help if you stick to facts and stop posting times and evidence you assume.(by help, I don't mean you)
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jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
MM, can you point us to the videos in which the street noise saturated the audio circuitry.
In an analog system the recording would over modulate. Usually resulting in spillover into the video as wavy diagonal bars in the video. Similarly an over mod white in the video results in noise in the audio and a tearing picture.
In a digital system the sound samples simply are all "1" s, the max digital level. No such thing as over mod , it hits full scale of 0 dbfs ( which stands for decibel full scale audio levels in a dbfs scale are either all negative numbers or 0 dbfs) and stays there until sound lessens.
In an analog system the recording would over modulate. Usually resulting in spillover into the video as wavy diagonal bars in the video. Similarly an over mod white in the video results in noise in the audio and a tearing picture.
In a digital system the sound samples simply are all "1" s, the max digital level. No such thing as over mod , it hits full scale of 0 dbfs ( which stands for decibel full scale audio levels in a dbfs scale are either all negative numbers or 0 dbfs) and stays there until sound lessens.
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