What a 'defund the police' plan in Seattle might look like

[Emily's Cat]

It's on topic, it was saying from an empirical point of view what it would look like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_enforcement_in_Venezuela

I believe ST was saying that he deleted his own post, as it was too off topic. I don't believe he was saying that your post was too off topic.

 

[Mumbles]

Which group loots stores, kills people who say "all lives matter" and riots? It's BLM.

False. Imagine claiming that a nonviolent group is killing people. BLM's chapters are still responsible for a grand total of zero people killed, no matter how much you wish otherwise.

Frankly, your embarrassingly ignorant opening alone is quite enough to show that you don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

ETA: Or are you another one of those people that thinks BLM is responsible for anything any black person does, like that idiot Paul Joseph Watson labelling a random crime "The BLM kidnapping"? Because if you're just here to join the local white supremacist brigade, then I can just start ignoring your racist crap now. But if not...get serious, and stop writing nonsense like you did throughout your post.

That's quite rude to say the militia's are white supremacist I'm not sure what you after here but their main interest is a sense of security within turmoil. If you look at the political stances of the main ones they are patriotic and libertarian.

Groups like the far right Proud Boy street gang, and the Boogaloo group that wants to use race to start a second civil war? Nah, they aren't patriots at all, sorry.

Talk about who police wink and grin at, the state police are ordered by someone above to leave BLM alone in liberal states. How did you think CHOP held out as long as it did? The police were told to stand down.

Seemed to have gone rather well, aside from a few attacks from far-right extremists. I have little doubt it would have collapsed on it's own eventually, as this sort of thing does, but that usually takes months.

For antifa firstly their goals matter to them more than who they oppose, which is anarcho-communism. If you named a neo-nazi group, "Peace and Love Org", does that make them suddenly only be about Peace and Love?
You must have not watched the video.

Yeah okay - by the way, this is the third anniversary of the Unite the Right rally, where various white supremacist and white nationalist groups got together to attack Jewish and nonwhite people in a central Virginia college town of Charlottesville. While cops sat back and did nothing, they proceeded to beat people, fire guns off, and drove a car into a crowd. Why this violent get-together was allowed to proceed when the city was given voluminous evidence of planned violence by Antifa activists, I don't know.

People remember that Heather Heyer was killed. They tend to forget that DeAndre Harris was nearly beaten to death by four white supremacists - who were identified, tracked down, and reported to a more or less indifferent by online activists. Eventually, the PD was shamed into making arrests and prosecutions for their near-murder.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

People remember that Heather Heyer was killed. They tend to forget that DeAndre Harris was nearly beaten to death by four white supremacists - who were identified, tracked down, and reported to a more or less indifferent by online activists. Eventually, the PD was shamed into making arrests and prosecutions for their near-murder.

You need not go that far back into history. There is video of a counterprotester attacking protesters with 3 pipe bombs in Portland and the police are only just now going through the motions of trying to investigate this terrorist attack.

Just like the Harris case, they are only doing their jobs because online activists have collected all the evidence and is basically shaming the PPB into giving a **** about a terrorist bombing in their own backyard.

https://www.opb.org/article/2020/08/10/man-seen-in-area-of-homemade-explosive-at-portland-protest-ided-as-ex-navy-seal/

 

[rockysmith76]

Boogaloos bad, Antifa bad, equally, Lefties in denial over owning their responsibility in this.

 

[Mumbles]

You need not go that far back into history. There is video of a counterprotester attacking protesters with 3 pipe bombs in Portland and the police are only just now going through the motions of trying to investigate this terrorist attack.

Just like the Harris case, they are only doing their jobs because online activists have collected all the evidence and is basically shaming the PPB into giving a **** about a terrorist bombing in their own backyard.

https://www.opb.org/article/2020/08/10/man-seen-in-area-of-homemade-explosive-at-portland-protest-ided-as-ex-navy-seal/

Yup, been following that case as well. The point is, *that* has been what antifa-related activism has mostly been up to, things that, plainly, police *should* be able to do very easily given their access to far superior resources. Instead, they waste time and funds brutalizing black people who are saying "Hey, stop brutalizing us!", on nation-wide tv, and getting people like Lupus to screech about how BLM is killing people (groups like BLM offer nonviolence training specifically so people won't even lash out when under attack - a technique taken from the likes of the SPLC and SNCC going back to the 1950s)

 

[Mumbles]

Boogaloos bad, Antifa bad, equally, Lefties in denial over owning their responsibility in this.

Fun fact: one can be a strong conservative, and still follow antifa. Or BLM for that matter, although the big problem there is that the group was founded by three queer women.

 

[varwoche]

The Seattle City Council is a body that perpetually consists, in large part, of raving nut jobs who serve to discredit any notion of rational progressivism.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The Seattle City Council is a body that perpetually consists, in large part, of raving nut jobs who serve to discredit any notion of rational progressivism.

Thank you for making me giggle. A truer description has not been uttered.

 

[lomiller]

Boogaloos bad, Antifa bad, equally, Lefties in denial over owning their responsibility in this.

Why do you think opposing fascism is bad?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why do you think opposing fascism is bad?

A contingent of people calling themselves antifascists are employing violence in a rather fascist manner in order to hypothetically oppose fascism.

Kind of the same way I'm against misogynists who call them selves "rights activists".

 

[lomiller]

A contingent of people calling themselves antifascists are employing violence in a rather fascist manner in order to hypothetically oppose fascism.

This doesn’t make sense. Antifa are mostly anarchists, what violence they actually engage in isn’t fascist in nature. Fascists wield violence to enforce obedience to the state, uniformity of culture and the supremacy of it's preferred people. Anarchists wield violence to break down State and cultural order. They are diametrically opposed ideologies.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not sure that's a very meaningful distinction. In particular, it seems to gloss over the fat that while many Antifa aren't particularly fascist, some of them seem to be.

Misogynists advocate in order to keep women down and deprive them of their rights. Men's Rights Activists advocate in order to protect and further men's rights in areas where they are disadvantages, such as child custody.

 

[RedStapler]

A contingent of people calling themselves antifascists are employing violence in a rather fascist manner in order to hypothetically oppose fascism.

Kind of the same way I'm against misogynists who call them selves "rights activists".

You really should understand the word fascism before you use it in a discussion.

 

[Ron Obvious]

This doesn’t make sense. Antifa are mostly anarchists, what violence they actually engage in isn’t fascist in nature. Fascists wield violence to enforce obedience to the state, uniformity of culture and the supremacy of it's preferred people. Anarchists wield violence to break down State and cultural order. They are diametrically opposed ideologies.

Antifa (or a lot of self-identified members) seem to want to enforce adherence to an ideology by violent means. That sounds fascist enough to me.

The new fascists shall call themselves the anti-fascists.

 

[RedStapler]

Antifa (or a lot of self-identified members) seem to want to enforce adherence to an ideology by violent means. That sounds fascist enough to me.

The new fascists shall call themselves the anti-fascists.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to remove breach of rule 0 and rule 12

 

[Mumbles]

I'm not sure that's a very meaningful distinction. In particular, it seems to gloss over the fat that while many Antifa aren't particularly fascist, some of them seem to be.

The difference is obvious. In order to escape the ire of antifa, all a fascist has to do is renounce fascism and work to repair the damage they've caused. To escape the ire of fascists, the members of groups they hate all have to die.

Misogynists advocate in order to keep women down and deprive them of their rights. Men's Rights Activists advocate in order to protect and further men's rights in areas where they are disadvantages, such as child custody.

In practice, most self-styled MRAs are misogynists with a fancy new name. This is unfortunate, as the original group was essentially the male equivalent of feminism, concerned with the undue judgement placed on men by society.

 

[William Parcher]

Nikkita recently laid out plans for how she would like to see defunding of the police in Seattle plan to proceed, with the goal of getting rid of police entirely to be replaced by community social services in 2021.

Do you know if there has been any talk about also having community news reporters?

Let's say there is a major crime in one of these communities. Would community eyewitness news reporters be favored over those coming in from outside of that community?

 

[Leftus]

Why do you think opposing fascism is bad?

The problem is, of course, their name. While they say that are anti-fascism, they aren't really anti-fascist. Their definition is very circular. Since they oppose fascism, everything they oppose must be fascist, see the name. If you oppose them, or their tactics, well you must be a fascist, again, see the name.

If I say "you shouldn't burn down police stations" then I'm a fascist? Nope. Not even close. Unless you are Antifa. As I've taken a position contrary to them, I must be supporting what they oppose.

 

[Leftus]

The difference is obvious. In order to escape the ire of antifa, all a fascist has to do is renounce fascism and work to repair the damage they've caused. To escape the ire of fascists, the members of groups they hate all have to die.

Why should you renounce something you aren't, and repair damage that doesn't exist until Antifa shows up and burns you out? The target isn't fascist until it's designated as the target and then there is no escape.

Antifa doesn't define what a fascist is, until they show up ready to torch your place to the ground. Target didn't seem to be to be a bastion of Fascism, but those with ill intent showed up. It's a Willie Sutton justification. Why is Target fascist? They have goods we want. If only Willie had called himself an Anti-Fascist. Getting to believe banks were fascist would not be a hard sell, but the logic is backwards.

 

[Brainster]

Here's an article from Vanity Fair on the topic. Get this pull quote:

White safety is cancer prevention. Black safety is all-day chemotherapy. Abolition seeks to eradicate this Jim Crow system.

It's the usual stew of "cops shouldn't be adjudicating domestic violence disputes", and "eliminate the drug war" with a bit of "cops do a crappy job of solving crimes," mixed in for good measure. Some of those ideas are not crazy; some are like this:

Abolition seeks to eradicate this Jim Crow system of public safety—not merely a two-tiered system, but a system where one tier benefits by extracting from the other. To “reform” policing, to subject it to bias training of dubious import, to push for the return to an illusory past where Officer Friendly provided sanctuary, is to attempt to patch up the more nefarious features of a system that should be obsolete. Without the history of policies and practices that make up white supremacy, without enslavement and slave patrols, without black codes and miscegenation laws, without poll taxes and courthouse lynchings, without redlining and housing segregation, without mass incarceration, policing as we know it would not exist.

Considering that policing exists in every country on earth, this is silly and just a tad overwrought. And then there's this:

Nowhere is the extra layer of unnecessary violence more reflected than in our insistence on sending men with guns to resolve mental health crises. In Eugene, Oregon, CAHOOTS, a crisis intervention program, was able to respond to 20 percent of the area’s 911 calls last year. Through the program, teams of medics and experienced mental health professionals are dispatched to handle certain emergencies instead of the police. For people suffering from mental health crises, addiction, and homelessness, introducing law enforcement in moments of desperation is an invitation for disaster. CAHOOTS reduces the risk of unnecessary violence and criminalization.

CAHOOTS has been around for 31 years, and they were able to handle 20% of the 911 calls? When you go around proposing "abolition" of the police, that hardly sounds like a dramatic success story.