Western medicine vs. traditional Chinese

[Marlinsfan]

About five years ago, a childhood friend was seriously injured in a freak accident. She worked as a bookkeeper for a grocery store chain and a TV stand attached to the ceiling directly above her desk partially collapsed. The TV fell on her head, breaking a couple vertebrae. She has had a couple surgeries, much therapy and several painkiller prescriptions, but she still suffers a lot.

Today on Facebook she said she is tired of being in pain, she is tired of taking pills and she wants to know why she shouldn't chuck traditional Western medicine and go the traditional Chinese route with acupuncture and herbs. Obviously the quick and simple answer would be "Because they don't work, Beverly." But what's a concise answer that might actually work and save her additional suffering not to mention her pocketbook?

I was thinking something along the lines of "Beverly, I know it's frustrating that you aren't pain-free but let's look at where you are today compared to where you were after the accident thanks to Western medicine. Because of the surgery, your neck is stabilized. Because of the therapies and various anti-inflammatory drugs you have taken, you have much more range of motion than you did. And while you aren't pain-free and it hasn't gotten any better over the last couple years, you are better than you were the first year or two after the accident. The reason your doctors have tried these treatments and drugs is that they have been tested over many decades and they have the best results for the most people. Note I didn't say 'perfect results for everyone.' Sometimes, unfortunately, there is no 100 percent solution. But everything the doctors have tried has at least worked to varying degrees for some people some of the time -- and they have studies and tests to back those claims up. With Chinese medicine, the best they'll be able to say is 'This is what we did for Bob and Bob says he feels better.' But in reality there are no controlled studies that show that any of those treatments work. Additionally, those practitioners are loosely regulated and many of them are flat-out quacks and conmen -- they know their treatments don't work but they will take your money anyway."

Any thoughts? Anything I should add without getting too far down in the weeds? Thanks.

 

[PixyMisa]

That's a tricky one. Pain has a big subjective component; if you think you're feeling better, in a way you are feeling better.

Of course, give a quack an inch and he'll take a mile, so you have to be very careful with that line of reasoning.

 

[Quietus]

That's a tricky one. Pain has a big subjective component; if you think you're feeling better, in a way you are feeling better.

Of course, give a quack an inch and he'll take a mile, so you have to be very careful with that line of reasoning.

I agree wholeheartedly with PM.

The CAM cornucopia starts to look very attractive when "Western" medicine fails to have the desired effect on chronic conditions.

Try: "that sounds like a drastic regimen change. don't you think it would be best to discuss the implications with your doctor first?" but in a friendlier tone.

Your explanation makes sense to me, but won't stand out from any glowing testimonials left by anyone on her FB page as to the "utility" of acupuncture or other woo.

 

[Tiktaalik]

www.quackwatch.org

Has a bunch of stuff on "traditional" Chinese medicine - much of which actually isn't traditional at all. Search Chinese medicine, I'd link it but there are a bunch of articles...

 

[Sledge]

I think Dara Ó Briain puts it concisely:

I'm sorry, 'herbal medicine', 'Oh, herbal medicine's been around for thousands of years!' Indeed it has, and then we tested it all, and the stuff that worked became 'medicine', and the rest of it is just a nice bowl of soup and some potpourri, so knock yourselves out.

 

[Ladewig]

I am of the opinion that if patients (1) are merely seeking pain relief and (2) are not going to spend an inordinate amount of money, then let them have it.

I would never recommend that Chinese "medicine" replace regular check-ups, routine tests, and treatments prescribed by a knowledgeable and well-informed doctor. But in this case, I see no real harm.

 

[crimresearch]

Acupuncture is one part of TCM, herbalism another.

AFAIK, the valid studies showing acupuncture helping in any real way were the ones that reported some positive effect on pain.

Doesn't mean that it will helps your friend's pain, but for the rest of TCM for the issues you describe, the research just isn't there.

(And the possibility for harm from what is ground up and boiled in TCM pharmaceuticals is very real).

(And yes, I know that you can Google all sorts of TCM 'scientific' studies done in Chinese TCM hospitals... I'd be skeptical of the controls).

 

[Weak Kitten]

I've heard that the USA has four medical schools where alternative medicine is taught as part of a GP degree. However I will point out that while these doctors understand and can prescribe a range of alternative care they are still fully accredited GP doctors and know when to prescribe "Western" medicine or send someone to a "Western" emergency room.

The real problem that often comes up with "Eastern" or alternative medicine is that the practitioners do not have the training to recognize illnesses and injuries that absolutely require "Western" medicine. Thus they will often do their patients harm by not sending them to the type of care that would be best for what is ailing them.

Just tell her that and make certain that she understands that Traditional Chinese, or any other alternative medicine, is a supplement. She still needs to visit and follow the advice of a "Western" doctor to get a full range of care. If you tell her that then you will probably avoid any violent reactions that can come from being too negative about the results of alternative medicine. She is in pain and she wants to explore other options but it is important that she knows that she needs to continue to see a "Western" doctor for those things that only they can treat.

If she gets a real quack who tries to get her to turn totally away from "Western" medicine then you can start worrying. With luck and a bit of searching she can get someone to give her a good massage and some herbs that will make her feel better without risking her health by forcing her to stop using her current pill regimen.

 

[crimresearch]

Strongly disagree with any notion that herbalism/TCM pharmaceuticals 'can't hurt'.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1172957/

http://wwhttp://www.healthy-status....t-cures-sold-as-traditional-chinese-medicine/

w.livestrong.com/article/110523-dangerous-chinese-herbs/


And that is without even getting into the whole endangered species bear bladder-rhino horn thing.

 

[mikeyx]

Acupuncture is one part of TCM, herbalism another.

AFAIK, the valid studies showing acupuncture helping in any real way were the ones that reported some positive effect on pain.

Doesn't mean that it will helps your friend's pain, but for the rest of TCM for the issues you describe, the research just isn't there.

(And the possibility for harm from what is ground up and boiled in TCM pharmaceuticals is very real).

(And yes, I know that you can Google all sorts of TCM 'scientific' studies done in Chinese TCM hospitals... I'd be skeptical of the controls).

are you then debunking acupuncture?

 

[crimresearch]

are you then debunking acupuncture?

Acupuncture as a cure, yes.

As an occasionally effective method of pain control, not so much.

 

[rjh01]

I also refer you to this thread and this post in particular http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7977260#post7977260.

 

[Ladewig]

Strongly disagree with any notion that herbalism/TCM pharmaceuticals 'can't hurt'.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1172957/

http://wwhttp://www.healthy-status....t-cures-sold-as-traditional-chinese-medicine/

w.livestrong.com/article/110523-dangerous-chinese-herbs/


And that is without even getting into the whole endangered species bear bladder-rhino horn thing.

If this was aimed at me then let me clarify my position. I would tell her to never ingest anything given to her; but having small needles inserted into her skin only for the purpose of pain control is something I would not start an argument over.

 

[crimresearch]

Not aimed at anyone in particular, just at the lotions and potions of TCM in general

 

[sadhatter]

I am of the opinion that if patients (1) are merely seeking pain relief and (2) are not going to spend an inordinate amount of money, then let them have it.

I would never recommend that Chinese "medicine" replace regular check-ups, routine tests, and treatments prescribed by a knowledgeable and well-informed doctor. But in this case, I see no real harm.

That is like saying you don't recommend that heroin become an addiction, but you don't see the harm in someone doing a bit on the weekends. The vast majority of the time, A leads to B. By accepting A you are drastically increasing the chances of B happening.

 

[Ladewig]

That is like saying you don't recommend that heroin become an addiction, but you don't see the harm in someone doing a bit on the weekends. The vast majority of the time, A leads to B. By accepting A you are drastically increasing the chances of B happening.

Really? Trying acupuncture is like trying heroin?

 

[crimresearch]

That is like saying you don't recommend that heroin become an addiction, but you don't see the harm in someone doing a bit on the weekends. The vast majority of the time, A leads to B. By accepting A you are drastically increasing the chances of B happening.

Swallowing even a 'little bit' of the woo behind TCM herbalism may have the effect of leading someone down a rabbit hole of 'alternative' remedies.

In the context of the OP, and the clarifications that have been put forth on acupuncture for some types of pain, that analogy doesn't really hold, does it?

http://www.umm.edu/news/releases/back_pain.htm

http://sites.tufts.edu/prep/tag/acupuncture/

 

[23_Tauri]

Strongly disagree with any notion that herbalism/TCM pharmaceuticals 'can't hurt'.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1172957/

In case the OP doesn't click on the above link, I'd like to quote from it because it really is damning:

Banned products containing the herb aristolochia, which has been associated with two cases of kidney disease in the United Kingdom in 1999, are also still being offered for sale. Other Chinese medicines that the committee examined contained parts from endangered animal species.
.....
Professor Alastair Breckenridge, the chairman of the Committee on Safety of Medicines, which advises the agency, said: "We have informed ministers that we can provide no assurance that traditional Chinese medicines on the UK market are safe."

This article is from 2001. Does anyone have any information on the latest situation in the UK? Are Chinese Medicine practitioners more regulated than ten year's ago?

And that is without even getting into the whole endangered species bear bladder-rhino horn thing.

For me, that would be reason enough to stay away from Chinese medicine.

 

[fuelair]

About five years ago, a childhood friend was seriously injured in a freak accident. She worked as a bookkeeper for a grocery store chain and a TV stand attached to the ceiling directly above her desk partially collapsed. The TV fell on her head, breaking a couple vertebrae. She has had a couple surgeries, much therapy and several painkiller prescriptions, but she still suffers a lot.

Today on Facebook she said she is tired of being in pain, she is tired of taking pills and she wants to know why she shouldn't chuck traditional Western medicine and go the traditional Chinese route with acupuncture and herbs. Obviously the quick and simple answer would be "Because they don't work, Beverly." But what's a concise answer that might actually work and save her additional suffering not to mention her pocketbook?

I was thinking something along the lines of "Beverly, I know it's frustrating that you aren't pain-free but let's look at where you are today compared to where you were after the accident thanks to Western medicine. Because of the surgery, your neck is stabilized. Because of the therapies and various anti-inflammatory drugs you have taken, you have much more range of motion than you did. And while you aren't pain-free and it hasn't gotten any better over the last couple years, you are better than you were the first year or two after the accident. The reason your doctors have tried these treatments and drugs is that they have been tested over many decades and they have the best results for the most people. Note I didn't say 'perfect results for everyone.' Sometimes, unfortunately, there is no 100 percent solution. But everything the doctors have tried has at least worked to varying degrees for some people some of the time -- and they have studies and tests to back those claims up. With Chinese medicine, the best they'll be able to say is 'This is what we did for Bob and Bob says he feels better.' But in reality there are no controlled studies that show that any of those treatments work. Additionally, those practitioners are loosely regulated and many of them are flat-out quacks and conmen -- they know their treatments don't work but they will take your money anyway."

Any thoughts? Anything I should add without getting too far down in the weeds? Thanks.

Chinese doctors in China use both, Western doctors don't. Any stats on survival rates of a wide selection of problems comparing China to the US?

 

[fuelair]

Strongly disagree with any notion that herbalism/TCM pharmaceuticals 'can't hurt'.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1172957/

http://wwhttp://www.healthy-status....t-cures-sold-as-traditional-chinese-medicine/

w.livestrong.com/article/110523-dangerous-chinese-herbs/


And that is without even getting into the whole endangered species bear bladder-rhino horn thing.

I am in full agreement with your point above with no need to check your sources. Just the fact that no herbal(etc) source in altmed is truly dose/strength certified/tested in any scientific way says "bad fecal matter, do not touch!!!" to me. YMMV, but I prefer continuing life at this point!!