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Welsh Independence - Wexit

I dislike English people who see Scotland as their property and want to hang on to it. I dislike Scottish people who agree with this point of view. It's got absolutely nothing to do with nationality.

During the lockdown the highlight of my month has been being able to log in to the monthly meetings of a reading group I have been a member of since 1983, soon after I first moved to England. I haven't been able to attend many meetings since I moved back to Scotland in 2006, although I have managed a handful and three times I've been able to host a meeting here, with other members taking the train and flying up to attend, and making a long weekend of it. The joy of being ale to meet my English friends regularly again has been wondeful, and it's the one thing I'll miss when the restrictions are lifted and we go back to physical meetings.

So don't dare accuse me of hating English people.
 
Rolfe said:
I dislike English people who see Scotland as their property and want to hang on to it. I dislike Scottish people who agree with this point of view. It's got absolutely nothing to do with nationality.

During the lockdown the highlight of my month has been being able to log in to the monthly meetings of a reading group I have been a member of since 1983, soon after I first moved to England. I haven't been able to attend many meetings since I moved back to Scotland in 2006, although I have managed a handful and three times I've been able to host a meeting here, with other members taking the train and flying up to attend, and making a long weekend of it. The joy of being ale to meet my English friends regularly again has been wondeful, and it's the one thing I'll miss when the restrictions are lifted and we go back to physical meetings.

So don't dare accuse me of hating English people.
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So the many Scots who think Scotland is better off a part of the UK are basicallly traitors?
 
Yeah, it's the new rule. Saying you dislike someone means you think they're "basically a traitor". Hadn't you heard?
 
Rolfe said:
I dislike English people who see Scotland as their property and want to hang on to it. I dislike Scottish people who agree with this point of view. It's got absolutely nothing to do with nationality.

During the lockdown the highlight of my month has been being able to log in to the monthly meetings of a reading group I have been a member of since 1983, soon after I first moved to England. I haven't been able to attend many meetings since I moved back to Scotland in 2006, although I have managed a handful and three times I've been able to host a meeting here, with other members taking the train and flying up to attend, and making a long weekend of it. The joy of being ale to meet my English friends regularly again has been wondeful, and it's the one thing I'll miss when the restrictions are lifted and we go back to physical meetings.

So don't dare accuse me of hating English people.
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I don't know you. As far as I'm aware I've never encountered you outside this forum so I know next to nothing about you.

I was simply going by the tone of some of your posts which give off an anti-English vibe. The fact you have English friends doesn't preclude you from holding a general dislike of the English.

You clarified your stance so I'll put it down to me reading too much into it.
 
RolandRat said:
I don't know you. As far as I'm aware I've never encountered you outside this forum so I know next to nothing about you.

I was simply going by the tone of some of your posts which give off an anti-English vibe. The fact you have English friends doesn't preclude you from holding a general dislike of the English.

You clarified your stance so I'll put it down to me reading too much into it.
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I've never gotten an anti-English vibe from Rolfe's postings, perhaps a sense of (IMO justified) exasperation at the rather patronising attitude from some English people towards Scotland.
 
Yup. It's not confined to English people of course, but for obvious reasons it tends to be English people it's mostly seen in.

I'm anti having my country treated as property by another, by having my culture denigrated as heuchter-teuchter shortbread-tin, and seeing all my country's resources appropriated and being told to be grateful for the charity of having some of this given back. It kind of tends to be people of a particular nationality who do this, funnily enough. Don't do this, and I won't dislike you, even if you were born within the sound of the Bow Bells.

The patronising way some people reduce this to "you're anti-English" is infuriating, and the facile and insulting way some people (mostly the same ones) sneer about the very idea of Scotland being capable of being an independent country when the world has many examples of countries of similar or smaller size and with vastly fewer resources is also quite annoying.

But don't do that, and I'm not anti-you.
 
As an example, take a look at the replies in this Twitter thread. I have actually no idea what Nicola Sturgeon said to prompt this, and I'm very far from being her biggest fan anyway, but this sort of reaction to a public health concern has been going on for a year and it certainly contributes to bad feeling.

Can you imagine this attitude when the Australian states closed the internal borders in that country?

https://twitter.com/Jamie_Blackett/status/1385614437315399681

As someone said on a subtweeted thread, I'm tired of being another country's playground. And of the lies that are being told. (I have literally never in my life seen or heard anyone in Scotland being treated badly or discriminated against because of an English accent.)
https://twitter.com/Jamie_Blackett/status/1385614437315399681
 
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Well, I suppose you know what other people think "deep down" better than they do, so there's that.
 
Rolfe said:
As an example, take a look at the replies in this Twitter thread. I have actually no idea what Nicola Sturgeon said to prompt this, and I'm very far from being her biggest fan anyway, but this sort of reaction to a public health concern has been going on for a year and it certainly contributes to bad feeling.
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https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/7000165/nicola-sturgeon-english-visitors-bars-cafes-scotland/

"Speaking at the Covid briefing, Ms Sturgeon said: “From Monday for a period until the middle of May actually there will be more hospitality open in Scotland than in England because there will be some indoor opening — albeit very restricted — that’s not the case yet in England.

So again if people are coming north across the border, you know, don’t sort of crowd into places — you shouldn’t be allowed to crowd into places indoors — but don’t come specifically to sort of escape the rules in your own area.”

National clinical director Jason Leitch echoed the Nats boss as he urged people not do things “you can’t do in your own country”.

The professor said: “Don’t use the border as an excuse to do other stuff — in both directions. So people from Cumbria shouldn’t come to the indoor hospitality in Dumfries and people shouldn’t go the other way round to do something they can’t here.”

The comments by Sturgeon don't seem at all inflammatory to me. But it is the sort of thing the Daily Mail type media would blow out of proportion and context to get their readership into a rage-fest.
 
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RolandRat said:
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/7000165/nicola-sturgeon-english-visitors-bars-cafes-scotland/

"Speaking at the Covid briefing, Ms Sturgeon said: “From Monday for a period until the middle of May actually there will be more hospitality open in Scotland than in England because there will be some indoor opening — albeit very restricted — that’s not the case yet in England.

So again if people are coming north across the border, you know, don’t sort of crowd into places — you shouldn’t be allowed to crowd into places indoors — but don’t come specifically to sort of escape the rules in your own area.”

National clinical director Jason Leitch echoed the Nats boss as he urged people not do things “you can’t do in your own country”.

The professor said: “Don’t use the border as an excuse to do other stuff — in both directions. So people from Cumbria shouldn’t come to the indoor hospitality in Dumfries and people shouldn’t go the other way round to do something they can’t here.”

The comments by Sturgeon don't seem at all inflammatory to me. But it is the sort of thing the Daily Mail type media would blow out of proportion and context to get their readership into a rage-fest.
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It seems to make sense to me. Scotland's guidance is aimed at Scotland's circumstances. If there's a sudden influx of people from areas with different case rates then that will throw everything out of whack.

Local rules to reflect local conditions makes sense to me. As does limiting movement.
 
RolandRat said:
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/7000165/nicola-sturgeon-english-visitors-bars-cafes-scotland/

"Speaking at the Covid briefing, Ms Sturgeon said: “From Monday for a period until the middle of May actually there will be more hospitality open in Scotland than in England because there will be some indoor opening — albeit very restricted — that’s not the case yet in England.

So again if people are coming north across the border, you know, don’t sort of crowd into places — you shouldn’t be allowed to crowd into places indoors — but don’t come specifically to sort of escape the rules in your own area.”

National clinical director Jason Leitch echoed the Nats boss as he urged people not do things “you can’t do in your own country”.

The professor said: “Don’t use the border as an excuse to do other stuff — in both directions. So people from Cumbria shouldn’t come to the indoor hospitality in Dumfries and people shouldn’t go the other way round to do something they can’t here.”

The comments by Sturgeon don't seem at all inflammatory to me. But it is the sort of thing the Daily Mail type media would blow out of proportion and context to get their readership into a rage-fest.
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It actually does come across a bit patronising at least to me. I think she's expressed herself awkwardly but I could see why English people might feel they were being singled out there. English people can come but don't crowd into indoor spaces? But Scottish people can? Or Scottish people are so much nicer they would never do such a thing?

If those are the actual comments I have a small amount of sympathy there. And I'm one of those Scot Nat horrible militant anti English buggers who deep down hate everyone south of Dumfries. Even myself.
 
Personally I can't stand the woman, for a whole host of reasons you don't want to hear about, at least here. But saying to people that they shouldn't travel just to escape the restrictions in their own area, and that that goes both ways, doesn't seem all that inflammatory to me.

We've seen internal borders closed, and really closed with police and army patrols, in a large number of countries. Only here does this get interpreted as some sort of xenophobic hate. Personally, living in the Borders where our last reported case in the entire region was more than a week ago, I'm all in favour of angels with flaming swords keeping out those buggers from Midlothian and Lanarkshire.
 
dudalb said:
I thnk that is a stupid thing;but some of the more militant Scots nationalists ,I think, acutallly, deep down, think that.
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And for those that don't think that - I suppose that they are not true Scots nationalists :rolleyes:
 
Rolfe said:
Yup. It's not confined to English people of course, but for obvious reasons it tends to be English people it's mostly seen in.

I'm anti having my country treated as property by another, by having my culture denigrated as heuchter-teuchter shortbread-tin, and seeing all my country's resources appropriated and being told to be grateful for the charity of having some of this given back. It kind of tends to be people of a particular nationality who do this, funnily enough. Don't do this, and I won't dislike you, even if you were born within the sound of the Bow Bells.

The patronising way some people reduce this to "you're anti-English" is infuriating, and the facile and insulting way some people (mostly the same ones) sneer about the very idea of Scotland being capable of being an independent country when the world has many examples of countries of similar or smaller size and with vastly fewer resources is also quite annoying.

But don't do that, and I'm not anti-you.
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Sounds like anti-imperialism to me. It does seem to me that there are too many in the UK that believe the British Empire is still alive and well and that the colonies should be quiet and appreciate all that westminster has “done” for them.
 
Aber said:
It could, but the biggest issues are a long and porous border with England, and a large public sector.

It could go down the Irish low tax route, but would not be able to support current public spending; tax increases would see businesses move across the border.
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Infrastructure is interesting. My brother works for the Welsh Assembly as an ecologist.

When they wanted to have a whole-department meeting, somewhere everyone could get to, they chose Shrewsbury, as the most connected town.

Looking at the rail map shows it clearly.

ETA: https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/435371488971405615/

And the fact that I had to find this on pinterest is also an indictment of UK public transport
 
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