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Welsh Independence - Wexit

The Don

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The Don
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Plaid Cymru, the Welsh independence party, is offering an independence vote if they come to power in the Welsh Assembly elections.

Plaid Cymru would hold an independence referendum within five years if it came to power in May's Senedd election.

Launching its manifesto, the party said it offered the "most radical programme" in "any Welsh election since 1945".
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-56654580

Looking at Plaid's election performance, that's like offering free unicorn rides in the event that a herd of unicorns is found in the Black Mountains but IMO it's still significant that they're being this explicit. A combination of deep dissatisfaction with Brexit (despite a narrow margin in Wales being in favour) and the divergence between Westminster politics and the needs of Wales means that there is a small, but increasing, appetite for independence.
 
The Don said:
Plaid Cymru, the Welsh independence party, is offering an independence vote if they come to power in the Welsh Assembly elections.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-56654580

Looking at Plaid's election performance, that's like offering free unicorn rides in the event that a herd of unicorns is found in the Black Mountains but IMO it's still significant that they're being this explicit. A combination of deep dissatisfaction with Brexit (despite a narrow margin in Wales being in favour) and the divergence between Westminster politics and the needs of Wales means that there is a small, but increasing, appetite for independence.
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Have the Welsh come to see that unpleasant reality of Brexit yet?
 
After centuries of oppression and being treated as second class citizens of the Welsh want to leave?
How ungrateful.
 
I used to think Wales was too wee and too poor to be independent, until I realised I was only falling for the same propaganda that has been used against Scotland. It's not true of Scotland and there's no reason it's true of Wales. If another country has extracted all your assets (and continues to do so) with no recompense, of course you're going to be poor.

There are plenty successful countries no larger than Wales and with no more natural assets and advantages. It's being able to manage these assets and advantages for your own benefit rather than having others walk off with the spoils that's the trick. They could start charging England for the water, for a start.

So good luck to them.
 
Academic, since I haven’t lived in Wales for 19 years, but I don’t know how I would vote if I were back there. As a mixture of Welsh and Scottish heritage, and living most of my life in England, I’m instinctively a small u-unionist, and I believe countries are better off in bigger groupings. I did support devolution, and would even support that if there were credible support for an English parliament/assembly, or sensible regionalisation of England.

I was in Malaysia for both the 2014 and 2016 referenda, and for both of those when asked by Malaysians what I thought, I replied that I thought it would be better for Scotland/UK to stay in the UK/EU, but if enough people thought they were being held back/oppressed by the larger unit, then I would expect a sensible withdrawal, keeping close links to mutual benefit.

That’s probably what I would feel in this case as well, with the caveat that people haven’t exactly acted in line with what I thought of as sensible withdrawal. But then I think about the fact that in my lifetime, the Conservatives have never won more than 40% of the vote in Wales, and yet for 29 out of (almost) 42 years, they’ve run the show. I’m sure some people in Wales feel that’s too high an electoral price to pay for the benefits they get from the UK...particularly if Scotland does get independence, at which point it would probably mean the remnant UK would be under Tory rule for a long time.
 
I'm of the opposite point of view. I see small countries of between about 2 million and 10 million population performing far better in terms of happiness and prosperity than larger units. I'm sick to the back teeth of Westminster taking all our assets, claiming these are "British" (and so by implication English) and then telling us we should be so grateful for their largesse when they give us a fraction back in pocket-money, because we'd be bankrupt without them.

I'm sick of seeing my culture reduced to a music-hall joke. I'm sick of any attempt to teach our actual history to our own children being monstered as "nationalist propaganda". I'm sick of being governed as a fractious colony by people who see us as exactly that and are determined not to lose our assets (even if they would be happy enough to lose us, as people).

I see other countries that make me sick with jealousy, despite the problems they have, as they also have the ability to address these problems for themselves and not be told, no we won't let you, by Big Brother 400 miles away.
 
Rolfe said:
I'm of the opposite point of view. I see small countries of between about 2 million and 10 million population performing far better in terms of happiness and prosperity than larger units. I'm sick to the back teeth of Westminster taking all our assets, claiming these are "British" (and so by implication English) and then telling us we should be so grateful for their largesse when they give us a fraction back in pocket-money, because we'd be bankrupt without them.
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I'm sympathetic to both views, myself. But ok, do a referendum, let's see what the people want. Maybe let's try to avoid the clusterduck of Brexit, however.
 
Personally I hold to a mix of the Thousand State and Ten State models; large unions (like the EU) of small states who retain significant independence.
 
Rolfe said:
I see small countries of between about 2 million and 10 million population performing far better in terms of happiness and prosperity than larger units.
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This is an interesting point. I had a quick look at the table and the countries in that range I think I wouldn’t mind living in were nearly all in Northern and Western Europe, most in the EU and the others economically close to it. I think if some of them hadn’t been in the EU/EFTA and benefitted from being in the larger group, then perhaps I wouldn’t want to live there. Not sure though.

I see other countries that make me sick with jealousy, despite the problems they have, as they also have the ability to address these problems for themselves and not be told, no we won't let you, by Big Brother 400 miles away.
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Also a fair point, and you’d clearly be in my held back/oppressed camp who would firmly want to leave.

Out of curiosity, if leaving the UK meant having a similarly difficult and uncertain withdrawal to Brexit, would that be a price you would be happy to pay for independence?
 
Perhaps it is when one country or nation dominate the others in the union that problems arise? I see many of the same complaints about Germany in the EU as about England in the UK. "They are taking our resources and always telling us what to do!"
 
Rolfe said:
I'm of the opposite point of view. I see small countries of between about 2 million and 10 million population performing far better in terms of happiness and prosperity than larger units. I'm sick to the back teeth of Westminster taking all our assets, claiming these are "British" (and so by implication English) and then telling us we should be so grateful for their largesse when they give us a fraction back in pocket-money, because we'd be bankrupt without them.

I'm sick of seeing my culture reduced to a music-hall joke. I'm sick of any attempt to teach our actual history to our own children being monstered as "nationalist propaganda". I'm sick of being governed as a fractious colony by people who see us as exactly that and are determined not to lose our assets (even if they would be happy enough to lose us, as people).

I see other countries that make me sick with jealousy, despite the problems they have, as they also have the ability to address these problems for themselves and not be told, no we won't let you, by Big Brother 400 miles away.
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Yes. I live in one.

Hans
 
I support the idea of a Europe of the regions - central government on major policy, otherwise all devolved to smaller, more cohesive units. In my book, that's a win-win, as Europeans would in most instances see local flavor benefit more rather than less as Europe unites, preserving local identity, with less fear of being excessively homogenized.

OTOH, Spain, for example, hates the idea, as would France, both having breakaway regions and an historic obessesion with the dominant culture. Tough.
 
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That sort of size seems to be big enough to avoid the sorts of problems Iceland has been experiencing, and to have a reasonably diverse economy, but small enough to stop too many people feeling alienated from government. Also small enough to have no ambitions to be a "global superpower", which is a huge benefit to both themselves and to the globe in general. At that size, countries go for peaceful co-operation rather than sabre-rattling, as a rule.
 
Hlafordlaes said:
I support the idea of a Europe of the regions - central government on major policy, otherwise all devolved to smaller, more cohesive units. In my book, that's a win-win, as Europeans would in most instances see local flavor benefit more rather than less as Europe unites, preserving local identity, with less fear of being excessively homogenized.

OTOH, Spain, for example, hates the idea, as would France, both having breakaway regions and an historic obessesion with the dominant culture. Tough.
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That's close to my thinking.

UK-ian politicians as a breed have never been big on the idea of devolved, regional government (except for their own particular bit) and a move to a more federal model.

I mean, the farce of a vote on more devolved government for North East England showed how seriously the then-Labour government took it: offer us one of the worst models they could think of, then claim rejecting that useless model was a rejection of any idea of devolution.

And I have to say I struggle with any broad concept of "England" and "English-ness", as I see little in those that I can identify with. Who was it that said the first part of the British Empire was England?
 
Carrot Flower King said:
I mean, the farce of a vote on more devolved government for North East England showed how seriously the then-Labour government took it: offer us one of the worst models they could think of, then claim rejecting that useless model was a rejection of any idea of devolution.
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That's pretty much SOP for anything the government doesn't want to implement, as witness the vote on proportional representation. The only surprising thing was that the Brexit referendum wasn't handled the same way; maybe that's what they intended.

Dave
 
OK, maybe this question isn't very important, but supposing this were to happen, what would Prince Charles' title be if Wales left the U.K.?


Derail on Ireland split to here.
Posted By: zooterkin
 
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