Welcome to Hamastine!

[zenith-nadir]

Hamas might have some good or bad policies.

What are the good policies? I will be kind enough to link you to the Hamas Charter which lays out Hamas policies.

The Hamas Charter

What is bad about that demand?

There is a hudna already in place a_u_p, ergo he is offering nothing.

Mr. Haniya and his Hamas party refuse to renounce violence, refuse to recognise Israel's right to exist and refuse to agree to all previous Israeli-Palestinian agreements... even if Israel pulls out of the whole of the West Bank and east Jerusalem....

From Haniya's own mouth:

Haniya would not say, however, whether Hamas was prepared to rewrite its founding charter which specifically calls for the destruction of the Jewish state.

"Leave Hamas aside now -- I am speaking to you as the leader of the Palestinian government, the government of all the Palestinians, and not as the leader of a movement."

...so what's in it for Israel? The hudna that is already in place? Sorry but Israel ain't that stupid.

The prime minister of Israel largely agrees with it.

Please provide the cite where the prime minister of Israel largely agrees with Mr. Haniya's generous offer.

So you do agree, Palestinians do not have a law enforcement situation in which they can guarantee there will be no terrorist attacks?

Absolving the Palestinians of accountability and responsibility for their own actions is a game that is tired, old and totally woo woo. This attitude only prolongs the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

 

[webfusion]

There were no 1967 "Borders" at all --

HAMAS is 100% irredentist, and claims all the land of Israel as theirs.
That is the core issue. Full stop.

a_unique_person asks:What is bad about that demand? The prime minister of Israel largely agrees with it.

Before everyone gets all excited about the HAMAS request to 'pull out' (((from "the whole of the West Bank and east Jerusalem" ))) , it is worthwhile recognizing that this would mean Israel relinquishing their presence in the Old City, including abandoning the Western Wall & the Jewish Quarter and leaving HAMAS security forces controlling in this area.

Anything less will be unacceptable to the Islamic fundamentalists, who cannot stand to see the Israeli Police in Al-Quds at all.
Yes, I can envision HAMAS security at the Western Wall, as soon as it is conclusively determined that he11 has frozen over.

By the way, I have checked, and the HAMAS is not using the word "hudna" -- it is an important distinction to realize that the word "Tahdia" in Arabic is being more commonly spoken (and mis-translated in the press)
(Calming)

For the record --- the Prime Minister of Israel has no interest (nor does his fellow party members in Kadima, nor his coalition partners) to make a full withdrawal to the 1949 Rhodes Armistice Lines. There is no stated policy to do so, and certainly the Prime Minister does not "agree" (largely or otherwise) to the idea of it.

If you can point to evidence of your claim that Ehud Olmert is amenable to a 'full withdrawal' behind the 1949 Lines, a_u_p, it would be most enlightening.

 

[a_unique_person]

HAMAS is 100% irredentist, and claims all the land of Israel as theirs.
That is the core issue. Full stop.

I was referring to the quoted demand, and ZNs dismissal of it.

As to core issue, yes, it is all about land.

ir·re·den·tist (ĭr'ĭ-dĕn'tĭst)

n. One who advocates the recovery of territory culturally or historically related to one's nation but now subject to a foreign government.

 

[webfusion]

to the core

I was referring to the quoted demand, and ZNs dismissal of it.

As to core issue, yes, it is all about land.

SO, how does HAMAS' request for a full, complete and total withdrawal from every last centimeter of "the West Bank and East Jerusalem" (including the Western Wall and the Jewish Quarter of the Old City) translate into a realistic demand?

You said that the Prime Minister of Israel "agrees" with the demand -- did you not?

AFAIK -- Palestinians never had a "nation" so they are being irredentist without any basis in fact!

 

[a_unique_person]

SO, how does HAMAS' request for a full, complete and total withdrawal from every last centimeter of "the West Bank and East Jerusalem" (including the Western Wall and the Jewish Quarter of the Old City) translate into a realistic demand?

You said that the Prime Minister of Israel "agrees" with the demand -- did you not?

AFAIK -- Palestinians never had a "nation" so they are being irredentist without any basis in fact!

You misquoted me. Olmert is, as far as I can tell, going to withdraw from most of the West Bank and hive off much of East Jerusalem.

 

[Elind]

Bottom line is, we may disagree (and that's putting it mildly) with Hamas' self-righteous, murderous, fanatic politics. But that's no reason for us to turn into fanatics ourselves. We're much better off if we keep on respecting national and international law, and don't let politicians meddle too much in anybody's life.

Typical rubbish from someone who believes taking a stand against something is wrong because someone else might take a stand against you.

What a load of......

 

[webfusion]

So you do agree, Palestinians do not have a law enforcement situation in which they can guarantee there will be no terrorist attacks?

The Palestinians have a terror-enforcement situation in which they can guarantee there will be terrorist attacks.

 

[a_unique_person]

Absolving the Palestinians of accountability and responsibility for their own actions is a game that is tired, old and totally woo woo. This attitude only prolongs the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

I am prolonging nothing, and I find the accusation offensive.

 

[webfusion]

About land, yes, but not about 1967 "borders"

a_u_p says: You misquoted me. Olmert is, as far as I can tell, going to withdraw from most of the West Bank and hive off much of East Jerusalem.

The Hamas demand is not "most" or "much" -- it is complete, total and full, 100%, to the last centimeter[, using the original 1949 Rhodes Maps Lines, and that includes the Western Wall and the Jewish Quarter of the Old City.

Anyway, the true peace they are offering is merely a 'tahdia' -- no thanks.
Like Z-N rightfully points out, Israel already has that in hand.

 

[fabian_lidman]

Typical rubbish from someone who believes taking a stand against something is wrong because someone else might take a stand against you.
What a load of......

Ok, you've made your point very clearly that my opinions are "....". Now please suggest an alternative. Or at least point out where you think i'm wrong.
I think it's deplorable that pro-democracy activists aren't welcome in some countries. This Hamas minister wasn't a pro-democracy activist, but that's not the point. The point is that we don't want a political filter at our borders. Criminals can be locked out, sure. But not politicians we simply disagree with.

 

[webfusion]

a_u_p denies;I am prolonging nothing, and I find the accusation offensive.

You misquoted Z-N. He said that this attitude (of absolving the Palestinians of holding to their agreements and responsibilites) will only prolong the conflict. This is true.

He said nothing about you 'prolonging' anything, a_u_p. He merely suggested that you are putting forward false arguments that the Palestinians cannot stop terror (from a law-enforcement perspective), and that is not useful in the circumstances of the world asking the elected leaders of the Palestinian Authority to renounce terror as policy, to recognize Israel as a nation, and to commit to the already-signed agreements of the PA under previous administrations.

Let's leave aside HAMAS as a movement, OK. I'll go for that.
What is Haniyeh asking for?

A withdrawal from every centimeter of land taken (from Jordan).
Is that a realistic demand?

 

[webfusion]

fabian --

• Criminals can be locked out, sure. But not politicians we simply disagree with.

They are criminals. By definition.

 

[fabian_lidman]

They are criminals. By definition.

Morally, yes. But as far as i know, there's no Interpol or ICC arrest warrant for any of the Hamas people. Remember, in their own opinion they're bravely fighting against an unjust occupation. I think they're cowards, but that's just my opinion.
By the same logic we could ban the American ambassador in Stockholm because the USA broke international agreements when they attacked Iraq. We didn't do that, and we shouldn't have.
I have chosen my side in the Hamas vs Israel conflict, and i'm not on Hamas' side. But do i want the government to help me make that decision? No thanks. Hamas can semd people here to tell their side of the story. I don't expect many to pay attention to their racist ramblings.

 

[a_unique_person]

You misquoted Z-N. He said that this attitude (of absolving the Palestinians of holding to their agreements and responsibilites) will only prolong the conflict. This is true.

He said nothing about you 'prolonging' anything, a_u_p. He merely suggested that you are putting forward false arguments that the Palestinians cannot stop terror (from a law-enforcement perspective), and that is not useful in the circumstances of the world asking the elected leaders of the Palestinian Authority to renounce terror as policy, to recognize Israel as a nation, and to commit to the already-signed agreements of the PA under previous administrations.

Let's leave aside HAMAS as a movement, OK. I'll go for that.
What is Haniyeh asking for?

A withdrawal from every centimeter of land taken (from Jordan).
Is that a realistic demand?

It is demanded that they stop the terror against Israel, but they cannot even stop 'terror' against their own.

There do appear to be realists in HAMAS who will settle for a lot less than wiping Israel off the map. That is a sign of progress, is it not?

 

[webfusion]

where?

• There do appear to be realists in HAMAS who will settle for a lot less than wiping Israel off the map. That is a sign of progress, is it not?

Show us who appears on this 'realist' list of yours. Name names.

BTW, it is not demanded of HAMAS that they stop the terrorism 100%.
It is demanded that they renounce terror as policy and (at the very least) call for an end to armed attacks against Israel.
Big difference.


(see 1st sentence of the Roadmap For Peace)
Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel’s right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel.
Palestinians declare an unequivocal end to violence and terrorism and undertake visible efforts on the ground to arrest, disrupt, and restrain individuals and groups conducting and planning violent attacks on Israelis anywhere.

This does not mean a marginally-observed 'tahdia' which is violated every Monday and Thursday.
(see: Sheikh Ibrahim Hamad)

FYI --
Islamic terror is not an act against 'occupation' -
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/718674.html
Magdi Allam, an Egyptian, awarded the Dan David prize for his "exceptional journalistic work and commitment to freedom of the press."
Other prizes were given to cellist Yo-Yo Ma and cancer researchers John Mendelsohn and Joseph Schlessinger.

• "The terrorism it wages against Israel is ideological terrorism. It would be a big mistake to think that it is resistance, because they are not trying to promote a Palestinian state," said Mr. Allam, as he received the accolades in Tel Aviv, Israel.

 

[zenith-nadir]

It is demanded that they stop the terror against Israel, but they cannot even stop 'terror' against their own.

It is demanded they stop terror a_u_p because that is what they PROMISED TO DO and are OBLIGATED TO DO under:

• Israel-PLO Recognition, September 9-10, 1993
• Israel-Palestinian Declaration of Principles, (Oslo 1) September 13, 1993
• Agreement on the Gaza Strip and the Jericho Area, May 4, 1994
• Agreement on the Preparatory Transfer of Powers and Responsibilities (Israel-PLO), August 29, 1994
• Interim Agreement between Israel and the Palestinians, September 28, 1995
• Agreement on Temporary International Presence in Hebron, May 9, 1996
• Protocol Concerning the Redeployment in Hebron, January 17, 1997
• The Wye River Plantation Agreement 1998
• The Sharm el Sheikh Agreement 1999
• The Fatah-Tanzim Statement September 10, 2002
• The Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict April 30, 2003

Yet the PA does not stop terror or incitment against Israel, the PA under Fatah - and now Hamas - continues daily to violate the cited agreements above. Ironically they signed those cited agreements above, and that is why it is demanded of them to stop Palestinian terrorism.

The excuse that they have no obligation to stop Palestinian terrorism and Palestinian terror groups "because they cannot even stop it against their own" is woo.....especially in a post-911 world.

There do appear to be realists in HAMAS...

...and their names are?

...who will settle for a lot less than wiping Israel off the map. That is a sign of progress, is it not?

The only reason you hear folks like Haniya say what seems to be almost moderate lies statements is because there is no Palestinian economy to speak of, there is no money to pay government employees or expenses, there are no real imports or exports and "reality is a bitch" as they say.

 

[Elind]

Ok, you've made your point very clearly that my opinions are "....". Now please suggest an alternative. Or at least point out where you think i'm wrong.
I think it's deplorable that pro-democracy activists aren't welcome in some countries. This Hamas minister wasn't a pro-democracy activist, but that's not the point. The point is that we don't want a political filter at our borders. Criminals can be locked out, sure. But not politicians we simply disagree with.

Many people do think anyone belonging to Hamas is a criminal, but perhaps Sweden thinks that if a terrorist claims to be elected then he can't be a terrorist. No doubt Osama Bin Laden could be elected by quite a few million people and he has killed comparable numbers to Hamas. On what grounds would you NOT allow a representative of OBL into the country? Presumably none since you don't believe in that form of statement.

Sweden's borders are controlled by Sweden otherwise you are not a country, just a county in the EU.

Countries take stands. Letting Hamas into the country IS taking a stand and as far as Hamas is concerned it is a tacit approval of their position. As far as I'm concerned it is a craven cop out. Forestar du?

 

[webfusion]

Still hoping that a_u_p returns here with his evidence of the 'realists' in Hamastine.

I'm prepared to twiddle my thumbs and wait a while until he comes up with his list of those names...


ETA:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/719050.html
The U.S. House of Repesentatives voted Tuesday to further choke off the flow of U.S. aid to the Hamas-controlled Palestinian Authority.

 

[a_unique_person]

I was referring to the person you mentioned who was asking for less than the destruction of Israel and saying it was progress. Progress is not the actual desired end point, but progress towards it. That is all I was claiming.

 

[webfusion]

Less Than the Destruction?

a_u_p, are you now telling us that when Palestinian government (Hamas) spokesman Ghazi Hamed says Hamas would "ultimately adapt its ideology to the current situation", to you that means he is advancing towards a position of NOT trying to destroy Israel?

"With time we will suit our positions to reality and change," he said.

So, you interpret this to mean that they are prepared to give up their claim to "Palestine" in its' entirety, "with time"?


How did you get to that assumption? I'm very curious about this.


ETA: Hamas Already recognizes Israel. It says very clearly in the HAMAS Charter that they recognize Israel. Yes, it does:
http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."